The Delmonico Way | Max Tucci
Intro: Welcome to the number one cookbook podcast, Cookery by the Book with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.
Max Tucci: I'm Max Tucci, and my new book is The Delmonico Way: Sublime Entertaining & Legendary Recipes From The Restaurant That Made New York.
Suzy Chase: Delmonico’s was so much more than a restaurant, it was a cultural institution. For those who don't know about Delmonico’s, can you kick things off with the history during the Gilded Age?
Max Tucci: Good morning. Yes. Let's talk about the Gilded Age and all that is about Delmonico’s. Delmonico’s originated in 1827 first as a bakery. It was a bake shop, and it progressed and it morphed. By 1837, it was a full-fledged restaurant by the Delmonico brothers who were Swiss Italian immigrants who came to America for the American dream, saw the opportunity and they were full throttle with this Delmonico’s. And by the 1830s, 1840s, Delmonico’s was the place to be. And really it was an institution for fine dining. It created America's first fine dining restaurant. And there were some different locations throughout the years. The most famous one is the one that's in downtown Wall Street. Delmonico’s was a chain, for lack of better words. And by 1891, really, there was an incredible location known as 56 Beaver Street on the corner of Beaver and South William.
And that's where so much magic happened. To talk about the present, we have to talk about the past. And the Delmonico Brothers really paved the way for fine dining, bringing white tablecloths, bringing menus to the restaurant, allowing women to dine there unaccompanied by men. And really what they created was this institution, this culinary retreat, let's call it, of fine and procuring experiences, and throughout the years, it entertained everyone from Abraham Lincoln, President Abraham Lincoln, to Mark Twain, to Nikola Tesla and the Gilded Age, we see it today on HBO, they mention it, "Let's go to dinner at Delmonico’s, even in Hello Dolly. Delmonico’s really was such an incredible culinary epicurean experience. To try to define Delmonico’s almost minimizes it. It's that incredible of an institution.
Suzy Chase: As an aside, my ancestor is Salmon P. Chase, Secretary of Treasury with Lincoln. I love to think that he ate at Delmonico’s.
Max Tucci: Of course, he did. Lincoln was known to eat there, and after that they said every president after Lincoln dined at Delmonico’s. There was such a history and a love and an affection for Delmonico’s and what it offered to the clientele.
Suzy Chase: Talk a little bit about that original building on Beaver and William Street in the Wall Street area. It's a triangle and I think it looks so much like the Flatiron Building.
Max Tucci: It's so funny you mention that. I have friends who come from Europe, Italy cousins, and they'll be in front of the Flatiron Building, they'll be like, "Look, Delmonico’s. And I'm like, "You have to go down into the heart of Wall Street, Beaver and South William," and I love it there. The Bowling Green station, the history of downtown New York. Imagine Bowling Green is one of the subway stops there because that's exactly what it was, the greens for bowling. It's in the heart of the financial district, and it was designed by James Brown Lord, I can never forget his name because it's James Brown. I'm like, "James Brown Lord did the building," and it was completed in 1891, and the Delmonico’s knew that they wanted to have something special. They're the ones that really called upon James Brown Lord and said, "Let's do this incredible building." And it was replaced however, because the first building they said was built around 1837, and that's when the restaurant happened.
Remember, 1827 is the bakery, 1837, now, is the restaurant. This I love because it's a New York designated landmark. We have to remember Prohibition totally came in and wiped out the Delmonico family. But prior to that, they suffered from what we call today weightless Wednesdays and meatless Mondays. The weightless days and the meatless days were war rationing for food. It was food rationing during the war. The building suffered, the Delmonico's suffered, and then eventually the building went into foreclosure. And my grandfather was obsessed with this building. He had been to America from Florence, Italy, Tuscan immigrant, numerous times, with his grandfather, my great-grandfather. Their first trip was 1912 and many trips after. And by 1917, the restaurant, the building really became a foreclosed building. There's no other way to put it. And it stayed empty for some time, the restaurant. Keep in mind, there were offices upstairs, there were merchant offices, there were insurance offices, immigration offices, but the restaurant was closed, shuttered due to prohibition.
And the building was at one point slated to be knocked down. Why is it important today that it's a landmark building? Because when my grandfather saw it, he saw not only the opportunity for his American dream, but he saw the opportunity that the building had. It was like that genie in a bottle. He just had to rub that lamp and the genie was going to come out. And he cared for that building. We called it my grandfather's third child because he loved that building so much and he really took care of it. And when anyone would come to try to vandalize it or break something, he was out there himself cleaning with the broom. It's funny because my Italian cousins, his family, own one of the largest broom factories in the world now called Fast Easy Clean. And my grandfather, I guess it was somewhere in his trade of sweeping and because he always swept outside, my father would take it one step further and would vacuum the floor mat in the front of the building.
But the building is so magical. It is confused at times for the Flatiron Building, but for me, it's a building. And what I love about the Delmonico archives that I have is that I have the blueprints where my grandfather would change things and fix things. For me, that building, even though we don't own it anymore, and it is a landmark, it has such a special place in my heart. And I want to just tell you a fun story, if I may. A dear friend of mine who I met on a photo shoot while doing some author photos, I guess we called them now, for The Delmonico Way. I was doing the photo shoot in front of the restaurant, and there was a young guy who was watching the shoot, and then we spoke afterwards and I'm like, "What is your connection with the building?" And he said, "I live in the building."
I said, "Oh my God, that is so cool." He said, "I'm on the fourth floor." I was like, "That was my grandfather's office." He's like, "Well, let me give you a tour of the building." We became quick friends. I learned after that he's the first openly gay drag race car driver who lives in this building. We became friends. He and his partner... Actually, it's that six degrees of separation. His partner works for Penguin Random House who distributes my book. It's that six degrees of New York separation. He comes up to the farm and he brings me a jar, and inside the jar there's a stone, like a brick. And I'm like, "What is this?" And he said, "I went to the basement of the restaurant and I brought you a piece of the cornerstone."
Suzy Chase: Oh my goodness.
Max Tucci: I have been given gifts my whole life. I have a tremendous amount of friends that I adore. They're really good gift givers. But this piece of the building where my ancestors' energy, I believe, is now I have with me always. I bring it with me on book tour. I had to write it in my will. I want this thing buried with me. It is the most incredible. And I just feel that energy. It's a beautiful brownstone brick building, and it's said to have the Pompeii columns that they go back to the original days of Pompeii, and these columns were there. But what I remember most about that beautiful entrance was when my family had the two jockeys that read Oscar's Delmonico before the 21 Club. And on the two big pillars of the building, one side said Oscars and the other side said Delmonicos. And for me, it's just a staple in my mind, and it just brings me back to that old New York. When you're in those five points right there in the heart of it all, you're in old New York and downtown. I just love that building.
Suzy Chase: You've been talking about your grandfather, Oscar Tucci, and his name was synonymous with hospitality. All were welcome at the table. He loved to travel. How did that translate into the design and cuisine of Delmonico’s?
Max Tucci: I love you for asking about my grandfather. Ancestors are such an important role in my life. For me, I believe there's this ancestral push. That's actually what got me the book. But we have to mention Oscar Tucci in a way and paint the picture though so that our listeners understand it. When we were doing the forward of the book, we were thinking, "Who should we have?" My editors were like, "How about this one? How about that one?" And then there was always this, "Well, Delmonico’s was before them. Oscar was before them. He was the restaurateur before that restaurant tour. He was the restaurant that made that restaurant tour." We decided to take a quote from Oscar Tucci and make that the forward of the book. And I'll read right now just that forward, so we paint the picture of who this man was.
Oscar writes, and this is from 1953, and this is on page five of the book, "At Oscars Delmonico, I serve hundreds of lunches daily and grand galas and dinners. It is my aim to please my loyal clientele and give them the highest quality food prepared in an appetizing manner, in an elegant atmosphere. All are welcome at my table." And my grandfather welcomed all, and when I say all, I'm saying all to Christine Jorgensen, who was the first transgender woman, and he got a lot of feedback from his macho clientele, to, of course, Gypsy Rose Lee, Eva Gabor. He welcomed all, but it wasn't only celebrities. My grandfather was known. Remember we said he loved the building, if there was someone outside a homeless man, my grandfather went during dark hours, would feed them at the table. My father continued that tradition and then I'd do that as well today in the sense of hospitality and giving back.
But my grandfather really welcomed all. And he was such a kind gentleman. I never met him. He was born on June 4th and he died June 4th, many, many years later. And he died 10 years before my birthday. I carry his name Oscar Tucci. And for me, I feel like even though he's not here, I know him so well. And by doing this book, I learned so many wonderful things about him. He was, from what I know, from doing all these interviews, the kindest man you ever met. If you were Italian, because he was, would welcome you into the restaurant. And if you wanted to work there and you didn't speak English and only Italian, it was almost guaranteed you had a job there. He came from Italy, from Florence, Italy, Tuscan immigrant. And he really had, like we say in the book, Il Sogno Americano, the American Dream. And he made that American dream, his reality. I say he was like the P.T Barnum of the restaurant industry, who P.T Barnum was to the circus, Oscar Tucci was to the restaurant industry.
Suzy Chase: I think the big takeaway from Delmonico’s and your grandfather was people will always remember how you made them feel.
Max Tucci: And you know that too, hosting a show. People want to come back because, I feel, you make me feel so welcome at your table here on the show. I'm sure you understand that there's that wonderful validation. And I constantly say it because it's really a mantra in my life and was my family's life. I see you, I hear you, and you matter. People will not remember more or less the atmosphere of the restaurant. They might not remember the taste of the coffee or how butter melted on the steak or how the Eggs Benedict, the hollandaise sauce just drip beautifully off of the plate. They may not even remember the music that was being played in the restaurant, but one thing for sure they'll remember is how they were treated. And my grandfather knew that if I can let them know that I see them, I hear them, they matter. They are the crucial part of this institution. At one point, we were doing a thousand lunches a day because people felt seen, they felt heard, and they were told they mattered.
Suzy Chase: I think a great example of being seen and heard was on April 20th, 1868, when women were allowed to dine without men at Delmonico’s.
Max Tucci: That was one of, to me, the most interesting conversations I think I've ever had about Delmonico’s when I first learned about it. The word allowed blows my mind that we have to go back to such an antiquated term where women were allowed to do something. And that was just a fact then. Women were not allowed to dine unaccompanied by a man at a restaurant, otherwise they were going to be known as "Women of the Night." And they say most were, if they weren't accompanied by a man. If we go back to... I love that it was on 4/20/1868. It was really the initiation of the power lunch. And they say the power lunch was coined by Esquire editor-in-chief, Lee Eisenberg, in 1979. However, we have to go back to 1868 when Jane Cunningham Croly had enough of this men's only institution.
Although even though it wasn't back then, it was probably considered a man's hangout, for a lack of better word. This amazing woman, Jane, she said, "Enough is enough." And she went to the Delmonico brothers and she said, "I'm going to have a lunch in here." We write about in the book, so I'm not going to give too much of the story, but the power lunch was created, I believe, on that day, April 20th, 1868, when the first women sat down to Delmonico's unaccompanied by men and celebrated what the men have been celebrating for now nearly 30 years.
Suzy Chase: Moving on to the kitchen, that was the heart of Delmonico’s. Could you describe the kitchen and the magic happening behind the scenes?
Max Tucci: The magic and the mayhem and the madness of the kitchen. Delmonico’s, prior to Oscar Tucci was known for having Chef Charles Ranhofer, who wrote the Epicurean Cookbook, thousands of recipes. Was he America's first celebrity chef? It's debatable, but for sure he was America's first chef who wrote such a detailed cookbook. If we imagine his kitchen, it wasn't just a kitchen. There were sterling silver polishing stations. There were stations for each and every item. And we have to remember back then when they were cooking, they were doing banquets for 300 people. Imagine the amount of food and the lack of refrigeration. You could just imagine what the heat, the intensity, and the smells and the kitchen and the burning and food, the essence of the kitchen. Obviously as my grandfather modernized the kitchen throughout the years, he also had the first refrigerated car in New York because he would go to the farms to pick up food.
But if we enter that kitchen of Delmonico’s, and if we go on that journey, imagine the kitchen, like most restaurants and townhouses of the time were in the basement. And chefs had to really scurry around and make the magic happen. And at a time when Delmonico’s was not a steakhouse, it was an international cuisine, they were serving international cuisine, my grandfather. If you can just close your eyes and take the journey of curries on the stove and you can smell them through the air and the white wine and the cherries, and all of the wonderful magical flavors and the bustle of chefs and sous chefs and waiters and servers. And my Aunt Mary, who was the iron fist of Delmonico, she used to hang out down there and observe the waiters.
And a funny story, Lello Arpaia, Donnatella's father, who worked at Delmonico’s said, "It was such a busy day. And I was running around the restaurant and I had to go down to the kitchen and I have all the Ginori on the tray, and my heel gets caught on the stair, and I slide down the stairs and I'm making sure nothing to break on the tray. I stand up and your Aunt Mary is looking at me." And she said, "Good job. You didn't break anything." The kitchen was a magical place. It really was. And the copper pots that were hanging everywhere, I have some of them in my kitchen today. It was magical. It was really the heart of the institution.
Suzy Chase: That attention to detail was the soul of hospitality. Your grandfather was so inventive that he had a printing press in the restaurant and he printed a new menu every day in-house.
Max Tucci: Talk about innovation and a visionary. But we have to remember, it might sound today like, "Wow, that's incredible." Yes, it's incredible that they had a menu press, but why? When we looked into the why, it became so obvious. He was going to the markets every day. The food was constantly changing every day. He would go to Bridgeport, Connecticut, he would go to Staten Island, he would go in his refrigerated Cadillac or the refrigerated Ford, and he would go pick out foods with my uncle Gigi. And they would go on these trips again. Now, picture in the heart of Wall Street, and now we have to drive to Bridgeport, Connecticut. It's not like I-95 was there, and it was an easy commute. If we're imagining this journey to go get produce and food, and now it's back in the restaurant, and now tomorrow we have to do the trip again, and they don't have, let's say, a beef steak tomato, or they don't have zucchini or they don't have onions, we have to change the menu.
And it behooved him to place a printing press in the restaurant so that for the days when the food were 86th, he could create the new menu without having to literally mark it off or put a line through it. Because his touch, the Delmonico way and the Tucci touch, was to have sheer elegance, sophistication, and also this notion of excellence. You couldn't just pen out something on the menu. He had that printing press there so he can create menus. But whenever there was something on people knew that attention to detail, it never looked like something wasn't in house.
Suzy Chase: And he created the wedge salad because that's what he could find at the farmer's market that day. Is that right?
Max Tucci: Oh my gosh, you did your research. I love you, Suzy.
So in deep. It's funny, there was I think it was a Seinfeld episode or one of the episodes, and someone was like, "Oh, my grandfather created their cobb salad." And they're like, "Yeah, right." But he used beef steak tomato, those nice thick tomatoes. He used the iceberg, blue cheese, bacon, and it was super simple and delicious. Sirio Maccioni, who once worked for my grandfather, his first job in America was at Delmonico’s. He came off the boat, he went to Delmonico’s from Tuscany. My grandfather naturally hired him. When my grandfather created the wedge salad, Sirio Maccioni smirked at it. Now Sirio's well known for the restaurant, Le Cirque, and for creating pasta primavera. And in one of his books he writes about, "Oscar created this salad with a dressing that was too thick," or something. "How much is it celebrated today?" When I go on the journey, and I'm sure, Suzy, you have your favorite wedge, where is your favorite wedge salad from, if I may?
Suzy Chase: There is this place here in the West Village where I live in New York City called Fairfax, and it's a seasonal salad. It's not there all the time, but they make the most fantastic wedge salad. And I think the key is the blue cheese dressing. What do you think? And pepper.
Max Tucci: Oh, fresh cracked pepper. Here's the Oscar Tucci key, which will take this dish one step further.
Suzy Chase: Are you going to say the chilled plate?
Max Tucci: Not only the chilled plate, but that chilled fork and the chilled knife.
Suzy Chase: What?
Max Tucci: And not only just a knife, a steak knife, a serrated knife. You can cut through that lettuce and experience it. You can hear the crunch and the crisp when you cut it. And literally when you have a cold fork and knife in your hand and you're cutting into a salad that's on a chilled plate, it makes the experience the Delmonico way. And I would love to go with you there to have a wedge salad together. Let's make a date. My treat. We should go scout the best wedge salad in America. I think I found it. We'll go to yours, then we'll go to mine. And in the book I love La Goulue. It's one of my favorite restaurants in New York. It reminds me of old Delmonico’s and now in Palm Beach.
And they have a wedge salad and they have replaced tomatoes with figs. Remember, I grew up in Italy, so figs are a huge part of my diet. I love my figs. And there is a wedge salad with figs on the plate. Honey, let me tell you, it is a whole different experience. And Chef Camin, who is the wonderful chef at La Goulue, I phoned him and I said, "Chef, I love this wedge salad my grandfather created. He would've loved you. This would've been on the menu. Can I have it for the cookbook?" And he was like, "But of course." And we'll go have your wedge salad and then we'll go uptown to La Goulue and have the wedge salad. But for those that want to try the wedge salad, it's in the book, the wedge salad with figs from La Goulue.
Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called I Could Keep Eating. Where I ask you what one food you could just keep eating and eating. And for example, I could keep eating store cake, the kind of cake you get at the grocery store, or Parker House rolls with butter.
Max Tucci: Okay, you had two things. Can I have two things?
Suzy Chase: Yes.
Max Tucci: For me, I love rice. I love because it is so versatile. You could have with butter, you could have with just salt and pepper. You could have it with... Sometimes I even put maple syrup in it. Rice to me, no matter how you eat, I love jasmine rice, Basmati rice. Rice is my thing. I love my rice.
Suzy Chase: And you could just keep eating and eating and eating rice?
Max Tucci: Brown rice, especially. Brown rice with little bit of soy sauce. I'm like a dalmatian. They eat everything in front of them. I could eat that rice. When we go to get sushi, I'm like, "Brown rice, please." And they bring a little bowl. I'm like, "No, no, no. I need a big bowl of brown rice." Who knows why I love my rice. But I have a sweet tooth too, and I love truffles. And we have a wonderful chocolate truffle recipe in the book from my buddy Fritz Knipschildt, the chocolatier. And back in the day when I had my vodka line, the Oscar’s Delmonico Vodka, Fritz and I came up with a vodka- infused truffle. We've had a long friendship. When I asked him for this truffle recipe, I said, "It's my favorite." Last night before I went to bed, I keep them. I keep truffles in a little Lalique bowl from Delmonico’s in the refrigerator. And last night before bed, I had my truffle and I could eat truffles all day long.
Suzy Chase: I love that.
Max Tucci: Welcome to the world of Max Tucci.
Suzy Chase: Where can we find you and Delmonico’s on the web and social media?
Max Tucci: My ancestors must be here. I don't know if you just heard that, but I have a sterling silver bowl on my desk in my office, and it literally just fell off the table.
Suzy Chase: Oh my god.
Max Tucci: See Suzy they're with us. You can find me on Instagram @thedelmonicoway, @maxtucci, and I always open up my inbox. If you want to email me, the old school way and not DM me, you can email me at max@maxtucci.com and that's where you can find me. And also every Sunday night on Max and Friends on LA Talk Radio.
Suzy Chase: Thanks so much, Max, for coming on Cookery by the Book podcast.
Max Tucci: Thank you Suzy for having me. It's been a sweet treat.
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