Food IQ | Matt Rodbard
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Intro: Welcome to the number one cookbook podcast, Cookery by the Book with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.
Matt Rodbard: Hi, my name is Matt Rodbard, and I'm the author of Food IQ with my buddy Chef Daniel Holzman.
Suzy Chase: As the founder and editor of the James Beard Award-winning food magazine, Taste, you are a confident home cook and tireless asker of questions about food and cooking. Your co-author, Chef Daniel Holzman, is a professional chef, co-founder of The Meatball Shop, which I love, and he started at Le Bernadin at the age of 15, which is a whole other podcast episode in itself. He's also a cookbook author and dedicated home cook. How did you two become friends?
Matt Rodbard: Suzy, it's so great to be on your show. I'm a big fan of it, and I think Daniel and I met when I was writing about The Meatball Shop. I was in fact there on his first night of service, and I was a journalist covering the New York City restaurant scene, and I met this guy at the time who was just full of life and energy and not one of those arrogant chef guys. He was so down to earth, and we clicked right away when I was interviewing him for that first story.
Matt Rodbard: And fast forward a decade, and we've been writing together pretty much ever since. We've been friends since that moment, but we've been writing together. We wrote columns for Saveur and for Taste, and we are a creative partnership and a creative team. And I have to say it's been one of the most delightful collaborations in my career.
Suzy Chase: So, what's one thing that you learned from him?
Matt Rodbard: In the book, we were writing about all sorts of opportunities to go into more adventurous cooking territories. And if, for whatever reason, you faced a bump along the road, your guests are not going to know that you are even ditching an entire course. I took that really to heart when I started writing with him a decade ago on Food IQ. Because I was testing these recipes and I'd come across a dish that just wasn't working for me, and I kind of scrapped it. And I felt that cosign, that okay to pitch a dish, really resonated with me.
Suzy Chase: So, Food IQ is inspired by your constant conversations about food and it tackles some of the most discussed though rarely clarified questions about home cooking, and food culture today. It teaches cooking fundamentals, imparts little known culinary trivia, and reveals everything we wanted to know about salting meat, cooking in a microwave, making great pizza at home, and acknowledging the global pancake power rankings. Okay, what is the global pancake power rankings?
Matt Rodbard: I'm glad you asked about the pancakes. So, the book is formatted we ask a question. So, on this question in particular, how do I learn to love the pancake as an adult? So, we go into this story and the book is full of narrative. We feel we're in a really unique place here with Food IQ, where we're writing through it. There's a lot of personal memoir in there in a fun way, there's a lot of reporting, we have a lot of friends at Food IQ that we've interviewed for expert advice.
Matt Rodbard: But for this one in particular, we talk about Daniel's time working at a restaurant in Santa Monica, or actually Venice, California, where he, I think, served what I would say is one of the most famous pancakes of Southern California in the history of pancakery. And so we channeled that recipe, which is a multigrain pancake with lots of texture and lots of, I would say, grooves in the pancake once you've made it. And then, of course, we get to the pancake power ranking, which is our riff on why we love the pancake so much.
Suzy Chase: So, what's number five?
Matt Rodbard: Okay, so let's start with number five, and we had a lot of debate in this book. There's lots of different pancakes that we were going to overlook here, and there's no … I feel like you can't really go wrong with a pancake. But number five is the okonomiyaki, a native of Hiroshima and Osaka, if you've been to an izakaya restaurant you've probably had this, and it's a pancake filled with grated yam and types of seafood, and made with dashi, which is that wonderful Japanese stock that kind of informs all the cooking of Japan. So, that's number five, okonomiyaki.
Suzy Chase: And then number four.
Matt Rodbard: Okay, so Yorkshire Pudding, we think, is actually a pancake.
Suzy Chase: Really?
Matt Rodbard: Yeah, because it's kind of cooked in a similar way, and it uses hot beef tallow and it's usually accompanying steak or meat and potatoes, and we just feel like … That's a Daniel Holzman one to be honest. I was like, "Yo, I'm not so down with Yorkshire pudding." But when you're the co-author of a book you sometimes don't get to agree on everything."
Suzy Chase: So, number three.
Matt Rodbard: So, three is one of my real, real picks, and Daniel agrees of course, which is Korean pajeon, which is the Korean pancake that you're going to get at a lot of Korean restaurants. And I wrote a book about Korean food with my buddy, Deuki Hong, called Koreatown, and we're working on the next book called Korea World. So, I'm still very much engaged in loving Korean food and culture. It's just the story of a lifetime. That's an aside.
Matt Rodbard: The Korean pajeon is a wonderful pancake made with kimchi, seafood, squid or octopus, scallions, and really you're frying it really crisp, and you're getting at the center of a table and it's being dipped in a soy sauce-based sauce. It's so good. Love that one.
Suzy Chase: I've only had it with scallions, but I'm dying to try the kimchi, seafood or a beef one.
Matt Rodbard: Kimchi pajeon is more common, the one with scallions, than just kimchi, that's vegetarian. But haemul pajeon is the one with squid and seafood, and I love both of them. Yeah, they're great.
Suzy Chase: Next is number two.
Matt Rodbard: We were in city last week, we went to Bubby's, and we had some buttermilk pancakes. So, we can't ignore the beauty of the buttermilk pancake. But Bubby's was pretty good. I got to say maybe slipping a bit though. We have to say we may have had a little gripe with their sourdough pancake, but that's an aside.
Suzy Chase: Uh-oh.
Matt Rodbard: But our number two is actually a blueberry pancake. We both feel that blueberries in pancakes is really the best option, not just for kids but adults. And, as I said, this is how you learn to love pancakes as an adult. And really you got to put grade B Vermont maple syrup on those blueberry pancakes. That's the key.
Suzy Chase: Okay, drum roll, what is number one?
Matt Rodbard: Well, this was a no brainer for us. We are two Ashkenazi Jews, and we write a lot about our background there. And the latke. Come on, you got to give it up for the latke. Not just for Hanukkah. And latke, for those who don't know, is a potato pancake served at Hanukkah, but often times served at Jewish delis around the country. And we love the latke because you can really mess up a latke when you don't know what you're doing, but when you actually nail it, which is typically getting out most of the water through squeezing the water out and seasoning it properly, and then frying it to a golden crisp so it's similar to a McDonald's hash brown. Those latkes, to me, are really the epitome of pancakery in the world and wrap up our global pancake power ranking.
Suzy Chase: So, tell me, what are Foodies 2.0?
Matt Rodbard: Love that you ask this because I think your listeners are squarely in the center of Foodie 2.0. When we started writing Food IQ, we decided that we wanted to really acknowledge our reader. We weren't writing this for literally everyone in the world. I think in publishing that's kind of a mistake. But we realized soon that there is this massive underserved audience of cookbook buyer and food lover out there, and we call them the Foodie 2.0, and we're reclaiming the word foodie.
Matt Rodbard: Because the foodie for years was associated with … I think it was a little corny just being frank. The term was corny. But it was specific. It said what it said. It said that you were into food beyond just making food for nourishment. So, what we're saying is the Foodie 2.0 is this individual who obviously knows something about cooking, knows how to slice a scallion, understands that beef bourguignon is made with wine, understands fundamentals of cooking but maybe or obviously, not maybe, has more to learn because that's literally everybody, including myself.
Matt Rodbard: So, we acknowledge this in the intro, and we actually celebrate it. Because the Foodie 2.0 is somebody we believe is the future of food. It's not talking down to an audience and saying, "Here's all the pantry items that you need." It drives me a little crazy when you see these cookbooks that have this very rote pantry section. Assuming that we don't know how to buy chili powder, to be honest. I'm sure there are some out there who don't know how to buy chili powder, but that's kind of, to be honest, that pantry section is part of the problem. And we address this and say, "Basically these are 100 food questions that we know are at the tip of your tongue. You may have been what's the difference between the three types of onions that are commonly used, white, yellow, and red, for example."
Matt Rodbard: But also, let me add, it's not just about cooking. And we've realized this through these questions that food and Foodie 2.0 is an individual who wants to talk about food, who enjoys reading food copy from the New York Times or Serious Eats or Taste, and just has this real engagement with food as entertainment. And so we are championing this person, this individual. We know there are a lot of you out there. And this book is really serving you, as a reader, and really understanding that you know a lot, Mr. and Mrs. Foodie 2.0. But maybe you need a little bit of help in certain categories.
Suzy Chase: I was going to ask you about the onions because I use onions interchangeably. Is that wrong?
Matt Rodbard: Not at all. We're not really sticklers about you have to use the white onion or you have to use the red onion. But, to be honest, the red onion is used a lot for the color. You're using it for its actual color and it's being used in more of a decorative scenario. While white onions are slightly milder, and you're seeing them more in Latin American cuisine, like guacamole for example you'd probably put a white onion in there because it's a little more mild and you're eating them raw or salting them lightly. So, those are the raw ones. And then the Spanish yellow really is the workhorse onion, and is the one you're cooking, you're putting in sofrito and you're putting as the base for a lot of cooking. They're the most astringent of the three, but yes, if it calls for red you can certainly use yellow. But you're not going to get that pop of color that, I think, the red will give you.
Suzy Chase: So, this book isn't just about you and Daniel kicking around ideas about food. You enlist some big names in the culinary game to contribute to Food IQ. Talk a little bit about the friends of Food IQ and who are some of the notable people.
Matt Rodbard: Absolutely. It was important for Daniel and I, when writing Food IQ, to acknowledge that we obviously don't know a lot and we certainly don't know a lot about the multicultural nature of food. We are two white guys writing about food, and we really have blind spots and we have spots that we just don't really know about. And we couldn't just say, "Here's the history of adobo," without interviewing Ligaya Mishan, who wrote a book about Filipino cuisine and is also a New York Times columnist. And so we got in touch with Ligaya and had a great interview about the history of adobo.
Matt Rodbard: We have over 20 of these interviews in the book. It's all over the place in food, it's chefs, like Meherwan Irani, who is a friend of mine and runs these amazing restaurants in Asheville and Atlanta called Chai Pani, and he told us a lot about curry powder and how curry powder as a thing in India is maybe not what you'd expect. We talked to Helen Rosner, a great writer from the New Yorker, about MSG, and we write a lot about MSG in the book, and we cook a lot with MSG. We feel MSG is something to really celebrate in food if you know what you're doing with it. So, lots of fun people we got in touch with.
Suzy Chase: Do you think the day has passed of the white guy writing a book about "foreign cuisine?"
Matt Rodbard: Great question. Definitely not what I'm saying to be honest. I feel, as a white guy who's written about Korean food for a long time, it's not about the gaze. It's not about the author's point of view per se. It's about the author acknowledging their point of view, acknowledging that there are blind spots. But, to be honest, I'm not going to say that white guys need more books. That's not what I'm saying. Because at Taste and at Penguin Random House, where I work, we certainly are celebrating, and Taste launched in 2017, and we've always been celebrating multicultural nature and trying to get writers from all backgrounds onto the pages and acknowledging that there is certainly a need for more in book publishing.
Matt Rodbard: So, I wouldn't say it's the end because I think that's unfair to a lot of folks, but it's acknowledging our blind spots, but also acknowledging that publishing needs to step up and offer more books to all folks. And I think what I've seen in the past couple years, and there's a real movement and I'm pleased, certainly there's a ways to go but I'm pleased.
Suzy Chase: I love that you and Daniel explain the misunderstood and uncover the unappreciated. So, first, what is the difference between Parmigiano Reggiano and Pecorino Romano? I never know.
Matt Rodbard: Pecorino is sheep and Parmigiano Reggiano is cows. If you go to the northern region in Emilia Romagna, that's where Parmigiano Reggiano is made. And you can look around and see there's a lot of cows there. You grew up in Kansas, I grew up in West Michigan, it looks just like that. I guarantee it. I love that region of Italy. It's agriculturally driven.
Matt Rodbard: But Pecorino is more a sheep product, sheep cheese, and certainly a little more tangier on the palette. Some would say that Pecorino is overused, and I'm not going to go down that road to say what or what isn't overused, but a lot of recipes call for Pecorino, and in fact Parmigiano Reggiano can be substituted.
Suzy Chase: So, the recipe that accompanies this is one I made over the weekend, and it's called Baby Shells in Parmesan Broth on page 29. And in this recipe you say we can buy parm rinds from our cheese monger, and I think that's so smart.
Matt Rodbard: Yeah, for sure. I think Whole Foods always has a little parm rind stash. You can also go to your cheese shop and ask for rinds. And using rinds in a broth, first off, it's really fun. You're using up all of the cheese and you're getting this really deep flavor. Thank you for making it and taking the time. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Suzy Chase: So, one question I've been pondering a lot lately is should I buy a wok? What's the answer?
Matt Rodbard: I love my wok. I used it last night to be honest. I made a halibut with coconut cream, and I used it. I use it for all sorts of cooking. It's a great vessel. Yes, you should buy a wok, Suzy. That is the answer. It's just one of those things that is just so useful. You use it for high temperature cooking. I love the way it heats up around the edges at higher temperature, and the center you can use it for lower temperature. But I enjoy cooking all sorts of Asian cuisine, stir frys from China, fried rice, kimchi bokkeum bap from Korea. And I use my wok all the time. It's just great.
Matt Rodbard: And we have a cool recipe for green beans, and I feel like recipes in the wok are fast. Most of the time you're taking is to prep, and then you're quickly stir frying. So, I like it. It's just fun to cook with.
Suzy Chase: So, in the book, the answer to this question that I found so interesting was are organic fruits and vegetables worth the extra money?
Matt Rodbard: The main question with organic is do I need to be beholden to that sticker of organic? And what we do write about in the book that there is a lot of agriculture out there that just can't swing the organic certification. And so to acknowledge that and realize that there is thousands of dollars required for small farms to become organic certified, and many can't swing that. So, if you are going to your farmer's market and it doesn't have organic certification or there isn't a sign that says, "All organic," it might not be because it's not organic, it just might be that they can't pay the fee. And so to us, we think organic is important to acknowledge. But when we're talking about vegetables and fruit and produce, it's not an all or nothing kind of question answer if that makes sense.
Suzy Chase: Now, to my segment called Dream Dinner Party, where I ask you who you most want to invite to your dream dinner party and why. And for this segment it can only be one person.
Matt Rodbard: I'm going to say that Anthony Bourdain is who I want to talk to because I just saw the documentary recently, and I had a relationship with Anthony Bourdain for years. He blurbed our first book, Koreatown, and I worked Zero Point Zero and saw him in the room a lot. And really I just have to say, I have a lot of questions for Anthony Bourdain about his final years, but also just about why he did what he did in terms of his writing style. I'm not talking about the end, I'm talking about just the way he created his TV show, which I think is still one of the greatest works of television ever. And we need to acknowledge that time and again.
Matt Rodbard: So, I think a meal with Anthony Bourdain. I know a big lover of Korean food, so over a bowl of Gamjatang. That would be my dream meal and I think we'd have a really fun time and a great conversation.
Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?
Matt Rodbard: Absolutely, so FoodIQ.co is a great place to check out the book, where to buy it, some sample questions and answers and recipes. I'm @MattRodbard on Instagram and Twitter and Dan Holzman is @ChefDanielHolzman on Twitter as well.
Suzy Chase : To purchase Food IQ and support the podcast head over to CookerybytheBook.com and thanks Matt for coming on Cookery by the Book podcast.
Matt Rodbard: Thank you for having me, Suzy, it was a real pleasure.
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