Snacks for Dinner | Lukas Volger
Intro: Welcome to the number one cookbook podcast, Cookery by the Book with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table, talking to cookbook authors.
Lukas Volger: I'm Lukas Volger, and my newest cookbook is called Snacks for Dinner.
Suzy Chase: You had me at the title, Snacks for Dinner. So you kicked the book off talking about how you and Vincent were on a California vacation and met up with a family friend, Leslie Woolley for lunch at her house, little half-pints of prepared salads and dips, a bag of crackers emptied into a bowl. This sounds super exciting. Two different wedges of cheese on a plate alongside a butter knife, and then some carrots and cucumbers. Tell me about your initial reluctance to view this as let's say a proper lunch.
Lukas Volger: Well, I think it was really like this like sort of maximum in formality. I mean, not that I was expecting sort of like cloth napkins and the whole, a whole experience around like lunch at my, Leslie is a very good family friend. There was no need to impress or anything, but we arrived at the decided time for lunch. And then there were no signs of lunch being in the works. And then over the course of just a few minutes, she just kind of threw all this stuff on the table. It didn't look like a whole lot, but it was like one of the most satisfying meals I think we had had in a really long time and the way it was both like so informal and came together in just a few minutes.
Lukas Volger: It hit all these kind of like nutritional punches with these like lots of vegetables and these delicious, like nutrient dense salads. And then this like creamy cheese and the crackers. And I mean, it really just looked like sort of smatery of snacks, but it was like a super satisfying meal. And then this was also right before the pandemic hit. And then over the course of the next few months, like perhaps one of the reasons that we ended up bringing it up so much in the time afterward was that it was how we like started eating just by default because we were tired of washing dishes and like, the mojo in the kitchen started to run out. But I don't know, it sort of struck me as this like wonderful way to pull together a meal really quickly using a lot of different components and creating like sort of a sense of abundance, but without any fussiness, if that makes sense.
Suzy Chase: Oh man, you just brought up dishes. I can't tell you how many times I cried doing the dishes in the middle of the pandemic.
Lukas Volger: It was a lot. And I mean, that's somebody, as it is, I wash dishes all the time and I'm always cooking, but I even, I found that to be really a lot.
Suzy Chase: And we have a dishwasher by the way. So it wasn't literal washing of the dishes.
Lukas Volger: It's just that they, it's just like unrelenting. It never, it just never stopped.
Suzy Chase: Oh, yes. So back to the cookbook. So was Leslie the impetus for this cookbook?
Lukas Volger: I think she kind of was. I've always, like my style of cooking, and this is something that I've like realized in the process of writing my cookbooks, is I'm looking for ways to get people out of like the granular nature of a recipe and think of sort of things as components rather than ingredients. And so my book Bowl was focused on bowl foods, so broth bowls or rice bowls, and the various components that come together and you can mix and match in any way to suit dietary preferences or whatever your got an appetite for. And so that's what it all comes together in a bowl. And then my book Start Simple sort of focuses on this idea that if you just stock up on this sort of core list of ingredients, you'll be able to like make dinner happen.
Lukas Volger: And so this I think is in some ways a sort of like a natural extension of that thinking. I love the sort of interactive nature of like a bunch of little dishes and you don't have to make all of them. You can incorporate store bought stuff and do a few homemade things. It allows a lot of flexibility for the diners and flexibility for the cook to just kind of like, turn some leftovers into component of a meal that might sort of fill fresh when you recontextualize with other things. It was sort of like already in my brain, but I think that sitting down to lunch with Leslie, that was where it started to, like, I was like, oh, these are just snacks, but snacks could be this like super satisfying and memorable meal too. So I think that probably is where it all locked into place.
Suzy Chase: You wrote in the book when it comes time to pull together a quick weeknight dinner, it's more a matter of assembly than cooking. And so I think that's what you were just sort of talking about.
Lukas Volger: Yeah, exactly. And to do it with intention, first off, the title Snacks for Dinner, I feel like I'd never have to explain what that means to anybody. They're like, oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. Love snack for dinner. Or like that was dinner last night. Totally, I get it. But like, I think implied in that phrase is this sort of like passive, okay. Let's just like eat from the fridge or I'm going to stand over the sink and eat dinner. But the idea with Snacks for Dinner is to kind of do it with intention and formalize it a little bit. And to realize that throwing a meal together this way can actually be really fun and really exciting and really memorable.
Suzy Chase: So you bring up farmer's markets in the book too. And when I go to the farmer's market, yes, I'm looking for fresh produce, but I'm also looking for the homemade pasta sauce, the pies that farmer made, or the fresh potato chips at Union Square Greenmarket. I could go on and on. So what about you?
Lukas Volger: Same. I love that like the farmer's market, I mean, this is something I find at farmer's markets across the country, but they are so much more than just vegetables. Like the vegetables of course are amazing, but, and that can be a wonderful place to pull together a meal. There's like fresh, at my farmer's market here in Greenpoint, you can get these wonderful, fresh made goat cheeses. I go to the Union Square Greenmarket where there's that wonderful Korean farm stand that they make their own kimcheese and incredible array of pickles and chili paste and bread. Of course, there's all kinds of wonderful bakeries that set up shop at farmer's markets and kind of can't get fresher than that. So it's an incredible place to pull together a snacks for dinner meal.
Suzy Chase: One interesting fact I learned in your book is snacky dinner parties allow for easy accommodation of dietary preferences and restrictions. That's so smart.
Lukas Volger: Yeah. And that was something that kind of came to me just in like creating sort of a sense of abundance allows you to, so people like pick and choose. So this is something I also realized when I was working on my book Bowl, where when I'd have people over to sort of build their own bowls for dinner or for lunch. If somebody doesn't eat eggs, then they can like leave the egg off and similar to with a snack dinner, just leave out the diary, leave out the cheese if you're not eating dairy or throw in some curd meats, if you would like to throw some animal protein in there. Just allows a lot of flexibility and then people can kind of like pick and choose what they want to eat.
Suzy Chase: Now, when you throw a snacky dinner party, do you set the table and serve people, or is it buffet style? What does the structure look like?
Lukas Volger: I really like doing it at the table, though I've done it in many different ways. One of the nice things with this kind of food is that it can all be kind of like made ahead and then set out. And so one of my favorite things to do is kind of have all the food on the table, everything that can set at room temperature. But so have it all on the table and create sort of that like immediate feeling of abundance right when somebody walks in the door, which I mean, if I'm a diner that gets me really excited and it seems to be something that people get excited when they come over to my house for dinner.
Lukas Volger: So, and then just having a bunch of stuff on the table and you just kind of sit down. And I love when there's like almost too many people to fit at the table. And so we're all just kind of like wedged in and sharing chairs and using coffee tables, a bench and just scooping from all these big platters onto smaller plates. And it's, I don't know, to me, it just like ends up being a meal that really lingers. It's you take a scoop of this, a scoop of that, and then go in for seconds or thirds. And it just, it has an easygoing feel.
Suzy Chase: And I think on the heels of the pandemic, which by the way, we're still in, we're loosening up a little bit. I think this sounds so appealing to just gather around the table and everyone's smushing in and having a snacky dinner party and just catching up with people.
Lukas Volger: Absolutely. It's been, I mean, I feel like every single moment I have to hang out with people, I'm just so grateful for now.
Suzy Chase: There's a section in the cookbook that I don't think I've ever seen in any other cookbook. So try to guess what it is. No, I'm kidding. So it's the temperature settings on your stove top section. I would love to hear about that and why you felt the need to include it.
Lukas Volger: Oh yeah. Thank you for noticing that. It was something that when I put it in there, I was like, oh, is this kind of like, am I like, is this going overboard with information? But I like to teach cooking classes. And I always find that people don't realize that there are not universal heat settings on their stove tops. And I've tested these recipes in a number of different kitchens and it's something that like, I have to continually remind myself. My kitchen here in Brooklyn, the high heat is literally like an inferno. I mean, I could just probably like roast a whole animal, like over my high heat setting. And so it's actually really hard for me to get a really good low heat. So I have to use a little heat diffuser and just be really careful about it. But then I'm out in Nevada where my family lives and the high heat setting there is basically like a medium to medium low.
Lukas Volger: And so I think just spelling out the visual cues and sort of the sensory cues of the heat setting is a lot more useful, even though I know that we're going to look at the dial, but to like develop a relationship with what high heat feels like, and what medium heat feels like, and what low heat feels like. It just makes you a better cook. I feel like the more we can become sensory about these things, the more we'll be able to sort of take charge in the kitchen and not be completely wedded to a recipe.
Suzy Chase: You have a recipe on page 26 called Chex Snack Mix Revisited. You said, "Besides Whitney Houston's rendition of the National Anthem, there are a few things that stand out from the Super Bowl parties you attended growing up beyond the Chex Party Mix." Could you describe this recipe?
Lukas Volger: For sure. I always loved Chex Mix, that like savory little bit of sweetness, all the good, I thought, I always feel like the Chex cereal is the best part. I revisited that recipe. And one of the things that I incorporated is broken up instant ramen noodles, which I feel like just add a wonderful texture and they sort of soak up all the wonderful flavors in my recipe, use a combination of coconut oil and soy sauce and brown sugar, and a little bit of maple syrup. And then this silk chili it's like an Aleppo chili powder. And then as far as the components in the snack mix, it's only my favorites. I go heavy on the Chex Mix cereal, and then the instant ramen noodles that are broken up and then whole almonds and you can really use kind of whatever nuts you want and then a good dose of Sesame seeds. And it's a wonderful way to revisit something that I really, really loved growing up.
Suzy Chase: I love that you have a recipe called Warm Revived Olives. What's a revived olive?
Lukas Volger: I mean, this is really more a technique than a recipe, but when you get olives from an olive bar and give them a rinse underwater to get the brine off and then throw them in a skillet with some nice olive oil and some aromatics and warm them back up, they really just like come back to life. And they're so delicious when they're warm, because the texture's a little different, but the flavors come out. And the addition of the olive oil really just like freshen things up.
Suzy Chase: So you a ton of wonderful dip recipes, and we're all familiar with the old chip and dip situation, but you have a clever way of serving up dips in a different way. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Lukas Volger: One of the things I really like to do with leftover dips, and this works really well with like a sort of thicker pate style thing is to sort of smear it underneath your plate or around your plate, or like a shallow bowl, and then pile your salad on top of it. A grain based salad works great, a leafy green salad, maybe something with like a fall vegetable, grated carrots, more chunky type salad. But what happens is then the pate or the dip underneath the salad, just kind of like enriches the dressing and adds this wonderful extra body to the salad. That's really good. I recommend trying that out.
Suzy Chase: And I always find that I have dip left over. So it's such a good idea just to put a smear underneath a salad.
Lukas Volger: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so beautiful on the plate too.
Suzy Chase: Over the weekend, I made your recipes for Spicy Zucchini Quick Pickles on page 59 and Fresh Asparagus with White Beans and Crispy Cheddar on page 170, but I didn't have the cheddar. It was still great. So could you describe these two recipes?
Lukas Volger: So the zucchini pickles are the result of having CSA and getting a bunch of zucchini. And in the summer it comes a point when you're like, I just don't want to turn my oven on. I don't want to turn my stove top on. What can I do that requires no heat? And so this is a very simple method where you slice up the zucchini thinly, you toss it with salt and then mix it with a slightly diluted brine. And I throw in a habanero chili as well as a clove, which gives it this wonderful, like fruity spiciness. And then just having those in the fridge, it's just such a great boon to this sort of component style cooking because I end up throwing them on top of a wedge of frittata for breakfast, or certainly in salads. And on top of sandwiches. They really just like bring wonderful texture and juiciness and brightness to the way pickles do to anything.
Lukas Volger: But I love the heat in them. And then that salad that you're referencing, there was a time when I felt like there were a lot of these recipes out there made from asparagus ribbons. So my sort of work around for that is to just whip out your knife skills and cut them really steep on the bias and when they're really fresh, they don't need to be cooked. So they have like a vibrant green juiciness. So you can always just like quickly saute them if they're not in seasoned. And then you combine that with a really simple dressing. And one of my favorite things to do with salads, especially when I'm cooking for friends who have wheat intolerances is to make like a cheese frico and then crumble that over the salad. So it kind of functions as like a crouton. And then there's white beans in there as well, which give a little bit of extra body and some great texture as well.
Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called dream dinner party, where I ask you who you most want to invite to your dream dinner party and why, and for this segment, it can only be one person.
Lukas Volger: I am a big fan of the singer, Rickie Lee Jones, and her music has gotten me through a lot. I've been to see her sing live many, many times. I feel like she would be a really fun dinner guest. I just read her memoir and she had kind of a crazy life like being on the road and how her career took off. And I think it would be really fun. And I know that she like is interested in eating more vegetarian and vegan foods. And so I think it'd be really fun to share a meal with her.
Suzy Chase: You just took me way back.
Lukas Volger: Go on Spotify and have a Rickie Lee Jones day. There are so many good songs out there.
Suzy Chase: I will. Where can we find you on the web and social media?
Lukas Volger: Everything is my name. So on Instagram, which is probably what I use the most, it's @LukasVolger, Lucas with a K. V as in Victor, O-L-G-E-R. My newsletter as well. And I try to send out a recipe once a month on my newsletter. My website is LukasVolger.com as well.
Suzy Chase: To purchase Snacks for Dinner, head on over to cookerybythebook.com. And thanks Lukas for coming on Cookery by the Book Podcast.
Lukas Volger: Thank you, Suzy. This has been a lot of fun.
Outro: Subscribe over on cookerybythebook.com. And thanks for listening to the number one cookbook podcast, Cookery by the Book.
