Nothing Fancy | Alison Roman
Nothing Fancy: Unfussy Food for Having People Over
By Alison Roman
Intro: Welcome to the number one cookbook podcast, Cookery by the Book, with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table, talking to cookbook authors.
Alison Roman: Hi, I'm Alison Roman, a cookbook author of Nothing Fancy: Unfussy Food for Having People Over.
Suzy Chase: I was trying to sum up your job description. It's very multifaceted, you have cookbooks, a biweekly column in the New York Times, and a monthly column in Bon Appétit magazine. Talk about how cookbooks are the truest expression of how you are.
Alison Roman: Yeah, so with having so many recipes in so many different places, I always say that cookbooks are the truest expression of myself. Because, while every recipe is pretty true to myself in terms of flavor profile, and effort, and visually speaking, I feel like each of my columns is sort of tailored to the publication, and that includes voice, writing style, and type of recipe. It's got to fit where it's being published.
Alison Roman: But my books are just being published with my name on it, it's my own column for my own publication, and I feel a little bit more free to just have it be exactly tailored to myself. And so I can be a little bit more personal, I can be a little bit more casual, I can be a little bit more relaxed when I'm writing my own books.
Suzy Chase: The busier you got, the less complicated your food got. I think you've found the recipe sweet spot for all of us home cooks out here. Talk a little bit about that.
Alison Roman: Well, I feel like I am trying to get people to cook, and I realize that time and effort are probably the biggest hurdles for people deciding whether or not they want to cook something, just basically for having people over or just for a weeknight for yourself. And so I just use my own life as a real good measure for what I think people are willing to do, just because I also am busy, and I have a small kitchen, and my resources can be limited. So if I'm willing to put in the time to produce something, I think that you will be too.
Alison Roman: And I think the biggest difference for this book versus the columns is that the book is really a good mix of things that require zero prep but maybe take two to three hours of hands-off time, and things that are ready in 30 minutes but maybe require a little bit more effort on your part during those 30 minutes. So rather than just cut and dry sheet pan dinners or weeknight meals, it feels a little bit more elevated, a little bit more interesting, a little bit more mixed. But I'll never ask you to take a long time and do a ton of work at the same time. I feel like it's always one or the other for me.
Suzy Chase: And we thank you for the substitution recommendations.
Alison Roman: Oh yeah.
Suzy Chase: We thank you. So it's "having people over", not "entertaining". When was the first time articulated exactly what you wanted this cookbook to be about?
Alison Roman: I feel like it was when I was writing the proposal for it, which is really ... I mean, the book was already sold, so it was really just an exercise for me to articulate what I wanted the book to be about. But I think it was just becoming so overwhelmed with people, because I knew that I wanted to do this book, and my publisher was like, "Entertaining books don't sell well," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. "It's very Martha Stewart, people get stressed out." And I was like, "Well, what if people weren't stressed out? What if we just called it something else?"
Suzy Chase: Well, did you tell her you're allergic to the word "entertaining"?
Alison Roman: I did, well she knew once she read the introduction for sure. But I feel like just rebranding it as something else ... People are okay with cooking for one or two people, but as soon as you're like, "Oh, you're having people over," it's like, "Oh, red alert." Well, it doesn't have to be different, it can just be something a little bit nicer. The things that I cook for other people are hardly anything that I would just cook for myself. So for me, it's just rebranding. I have two styles of cooking, I'm either cooking for myself alone or I'm cooking for other people.
Suzy Chase: Describe how this cookbook is organized.
Alison Roman: So this book is a bit different from Dining In in that I've organized it by how I like to put a meal together, rather than by topics. So it starts off with snacks, and there are little subsections within each chapter, but snacks or dips, and vegetables, and crunchy things, and salty things, and cheeses and stuff like that. And then it moves into salads, there are crunchy salads, there are sort-of salads, there are leafy salads.
Alison Roman: And then there are the sides, which I find to be definitely distinct from salads in that, to me, sides can be grains, beans, pasta, chickpeas, roasted vegetables, things with cheese in them, maybe something a bit hardier, something more comforting and substantial. And then there are the mains, and that includes all the proteins and then some pastas and vegetarian dishes.
Alison Roman: And then sweet stuff, which is a pretty slender chapter in this particular book, because I feel like dessert does not have to be a part of having people over. But to me, it's a really good mix of dishes that are excellent for serving to groups.
Suzy Chase: And you can even serve fruit on ice.
Alison Roman: You can, you can literally just put fresh fruit on ice, and serve that for dessert. I've done it a million times, people love it.
Suzy Chase: So you have three helpful things at the beginning. One, ask for help; two, pick your battles; and three, which is the hardest one for me, a typical home cook, never apologize. So let's discuss. What if you're a control freak? How can we ask for help? Not talking about myself.
Alison Roman: Well, that's a huge lesson that I'm still learning all the time, but I think it's learning that things don't always have to go your way, that you don't always have to have control over everything, lessons that I'm still trying to teach myself. But understanding, would you rather be stressed out, or would you rather relinquish some control? And after years in the kitchen and having people over, I realized that I'd rather not be stressed out. So, that is the choice, and to me, letting somebody else do something is the easiest way to achieve that.
Suzy Chase: I heard Julia Turshen say one time she makes one person take out the garbage.
Alison Roman: Oh yeah, I make everyone take out the garbage. I make everyone bring ice, and I make everyone take out the garbage.
Suzy Chase: Don't apologize, because you're not running a restaurant. It won't be perfect.
Alison Roman: You go to a restaurant to have a certain level of service, and to have things go well, and to have things be perfect, and you know what to expect. And that's not your home, you know what I mean?
Suzy Chase: Yeah. But what is it with people that come over, and they expect it, and you expect it, to be perfection?
Alison Roman: That's the thing, I don't think people expect it, I don't think anyone expects it. I think that we project that, I think that we-
Suzy Chase: Yes, it's in our head.
Alison Roman: "People are going to judge me if I don't have matching plates, or they're going to judge me if I don't have the right silverware, or if my house looks a little messy, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But we're not. And if you think that you are going to be judged for any of that stuff, you probably shouldn't have them over for dinner.
Suzy Chase: You wrote, "I do love New York City's farmer's markets, but getting through a subway turnstile and riding a crowded train with produce for 14 people is not a chill experience." I feel the same way. So what do you do?
Alison Roman: So I like to kind of approach my shopping in the same way that I approach my fashion sense, which is I'm a very high-low person, I like to mix and match, and I like to get my things from a lot of different places. So for the farmer's market, I will absolutely get certain specialty items from there, like really in-season vegetables, I always get my salad mixes from there, my good bread, things like that that I know are going to be best when purchased at the farmer's market.
Alison Roman: And then kind of for everything else, staple items, I just either get from the grocery store, sometimes I'll use an online delivering service if I'm really in a pinch. But yeah, I feel like doing that, when you live in a city where you have a car, it's obviously a bit different, you can just go from the market to the car to your home. But for me, I have to consider the things that I'm actually traveling with, and so I really need to make them count.
Suzy Chase: What's your thing with Eastern European dairy products?
Alison Roman: Oh, I love them. If you've ever been to an Eastern European grocery store, the selection of sour cream and butter is unbelievable. And they also have a crazy selection of yogurt and other cheeses, but the sour cream and butter selections are mind-blowing. They have 40 different types of each, and then 40 more in a different flavor profile, or salted or unsalted, or sweet or savory, or whatever. It is just nuts. I am overwhelmed, and the packaging is amazing, and the quality is really great, and they taste different, you know what I mean?
Suzy Chase: I always thought sour cream was sour cream was sour cream. I understand butter, but sour cream?
Alison Roman: Yeah. It's fat content, tanginess, how long was it soured for, it's a lot, there's a lot of difference. And the only way you'll ever know is if you buy every type of sour cream that's on offer at the market, which I have tried to do.
Suzy Chase: Do not confuse snacks with hors d'oeuvres or canapés. Let's talk about anchovies, one of your snack essentials. Describe your spicy marinated anchovies with potato chips.
Alison Roman: Mm, they're so, so good. So this is basically a snack that I had in Italy. We were sitting eating ice cream, and they brought over these anchovy snacks, it was just a little dish of anchovies with potato chips with toothpicks, and we were like, "Well, I guess we eat them on the potato chips." And even if that wasn't the intention, which it may not have been, that's how I did it, and it was so good that I came back from my trip and that's all I wanted to serve to people.
Alison Roman: And you might think, "Oh is that too salty? It's like salt on salt." But when you douse the anchovies in vinegar and add some chili or fresh peppers, then it takes it to a completely different place, and it's just so, so good.
Suzy Chase: What are the best anchovies and the best chips for this combo?
Alison Roman: I feel like the anchovies depends on the brand that you are able to find. I like Ortiz, which is a pretty widely available brand. And then for a potato chip, you definitely want a sturdy, kettle chip style chip, nothing that's going to be flimsy. I think kettle chips are really good, Cape Cod are really good, Zapp's are also good, North Fork potato chips, those are also excellent. Any sort of ... You know what I mean, it's like a sturdy chip.
Suzy Chase: Hardy, yeah. Do you think there's going to be a recipe in this cookbook ... I know everyone's going to ask you this too.
Alison Roman: I don't have an answer.
Suzy Chase: Do you think there's a recipe in this cookbook that catches on like wildfire, like those darned salted butter chocolate chunk shortbread cookies, or the stew?
Alison Roman: I hope so, but I never know what it's going to be. I just hope the whole book does as well, my hope is that everything in the book does as well as any of those recipes. It's tough, because when you release things like the stew, the recipes come out one at a time, so they can really be highlighted. But with a book, you're releasing 130-something recipes at one time. So it's going to take a while for people to work through it, and get a sense of what everybody's cooking. I won't know for a while, but I think it'll be great.
Suzy Chase: I can't wait. So I've heard you say you don't really consume any food media, you don't read magazines, you don't read cookbooks. Where do you get your recipe inspiration?
Alison Roman: Mostly travel, to be honest. I love getting out of New York. Travel can mean going a few hours upstate, or leaving the city, or leaving the state, or leaving the country. I think just getting out of your comfort zone and getting out of your usual rut is a really helpful way to get new inspiration. And that doesn't mean necessarily exotic ingredients, just cooking in a new kitchen with new equipment can inspire you.
Suzy Chase: You have one cookie recipe in this cookbook, Tiny Salty Chocolaty Cookies, and you almost cut it?
Alison Roman: I almost cut it, because I was almost like, "I don't even want to give people another cookie to talk about." It felt like I was setting myself up to fail. People will always compare it to the other cookie, and I almost just didn't even want to give anyone to compare anything to.
Suzy Chase: Yeah, no comments.
Alison Roman: Yeah, no comments.
Suzy Chase: Over the weekend, I made your recipes for Celery Salad with Cilantro and Sesame, that's a tongue twister, on page 100. How is this your humble homage to New York City?
Alison Roman: It feels like I was inspired by the salad that I eat a lot of times at this place called Xi'an Famous Foods, which is a Western-style Chinese, fast casual ... I guess it's a chain at this point, there are quite a few of them in New York. But I eat there are a lot, I love their hand-pulled noodles, I love their soft tofu. But I really, really love their tiger salad, which is a very, very vinegary salad made with lots of cilantro stems and celery and scallions, and it is so delicious.
Alison Roman: My version's a little bit different, it's a little less cilantro-heavy, more celery-heavy, and it doesn't ... I forget, there's one main difference, I forget what it is. If I ate them side by side, I could tell you. But for me, it's being inspired by something, and I want people to know where I was inspired by so they can actually go try the original, because it's different from mine, but also worth eating. And yeah, that was something that was burned into my brain, of a type of salad that I want eat all the time with so many different things.
Suzy Chase: I also made your Sticky Chili Chicken with Hot-and-Sour Pineapple on page 196. Now, you don't love sweet with savory, but this dish is an exception.
Alison Roman: Yeah. I feel like, for whatever reason, and I don't even know where I had the idea for this dish, but I had a craving for it. I was like, "You know what I really want? Just a deeply sticky, savory, sweet pineapple with chicken." I just thought that sounded so, so good. It probably comes from my love of al pastor tacos, although this flavor profile is definitely more Asian-ish because it's got fish sauce and chili paste and brown sugar. There's something about hot temperatures and hot and sweet food that goes really well together, so I think I must've come up with it in the middle of summer when I was just wanting that style of eating.
Suzy Chase: So I also made your Lemony Turmeric Tea Cake on page 309, the ultimate house cake. Talk a little bit about this recipe.
Alison Roman: Oh, this is my favorite, favorite little cake. I love the idea of having a cake when people come over, even if they're just stopping by, or if you're going to somebody's house, or whatever. But this is a one-bowl cake, you don't need a mixer. It's really bright and cheery and yellow, and it's lemony and buttery. I don't know, it just is such a happy little cake. And it's pretty foolproof, I'm pretty sure you just can't mess it up.
Alison Roman: It's good to have one thing that you're kind of known for. And there was a period of time where every time somebody would come over I was making this cake, just because I wanted to have some on hand. And it's not that sweet, so you could kind of eat it as a breakfast cake if you wanted. But it's also sweet enough to where you could serve it for dessert, and it's just kind of a good, all-purpose little house cake.
Suzy Chase: I also made a better garlic bread, Caramelized Garlic on Toast with Anchovies. The anchovies gave it a crazy, salty, briny touch. It was so good.
Alison Roman: Yeah, it is super, super good. I feel like that one comes from my love of caramelizing garlic in general, and just having things to put it on. But I also just realized that, with garlic bread, I think the biggest problem is that people use raw garlic, and they chop it and they put it in the butter, and then they spread it on the bread, and then they char it or they broil it or toast it, and those bits of garlic either don't cook enough, or they burn.
Suzy Chase: They burn, yeah.
Alison Roman: Yeah, so my solution was to kind of cook them into a paste beforehand, so that way there are never bits that have the opportunity to burn. So you can also use a lot more of the garlic, because it mellows out through caramelizing. And so what you end up with is this kind of salty, really savory, almost sweet flavor because of the way the garlic cooks. That's just so crazy good to me, and every time I make this garlic bread for people, they absolutely lose their minds.
Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called My Favorite Cookbook. Aside from this cookbook, what is your all-time favorite cookbook, and why?
Alison Roman: Probably the Chez Panisse Menu Cookbook, I love, love, love that cookbook. It's just a ... I haven't ever cooked anything out of it, but I love reading it for the recipe inspiration, and the names, and the stories behind it. It's a really wonderful a mix of narrative and good ideas for menus. But what I like about it is that it's personal, and the stories about the recipes and the menus are more about where they took place, why they took place, than a head note. Sometimes you want to provide service, but sometimes you also just want to provide context, and I really enjoy reading the personal parts of the stories.
Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?
Alison Roman: You can find me on social media @alisoneroman on Instagram and Twitter, and I think Facebook, and pretty much every platform. I try to streamline, just because having more than one name is annoying. And my website is alisoneroman.com.
Suzy Chase: It's life the way we live it, it's messy as hell, and it's nothing fancy. Thanks so much, Alison, for chatting with me on Cookery by the Book Podcast.
Alison Roman: Of course, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for including me.
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