Moorish | Ben Tish
Moorish
Vibrant Recipes from the Mediterranean
By Ben Tish
Intro: Welcome to the number one cookbook podcast Cookery by the Book with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.
Ben Tish: Hello, my name is Ben Tish. My latest book is Moorish, Vibrant Recipes from the Mediterranean.
Suzy Chase: When doing my research about the Moors, I found so much confusing information. Even though they ruled Spain for 800 years, Wikipedia says the Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people. I understood the term more was used by Europeans to refer to anyone of Arabic descent. What does it mean to be a Moor?
Ben Tish: The term Moor is a bit of, it is quite a gray area. I think it's right that there wasn't one distinct kind of nation or country where the Moors came from, but it was a mix. It was from all over North Africa. It was probably a collective word for that back in the day. But I think now, for me, this is my understanding of it, is that the influence, the Morrish, to put it, is to be a Moor, doesn't exist anymore. It's basically, it's the influence of a collection of people from all over North Africa that basically invaded and occupied either Spain Andalucia, but also Sicily, Portugal and a lot of the southern Mediterranean.
Suzy Chase: You wrote about how they combined indigenous ingredients with their own imported techniques, flavorings, ingredients and spicing.
Ben Tish: Yeah, exactly that. So yeah, it was how they adapted the recipes, their own recipes, the Arabic recipes and as you say, techniques, ingredients and then yeah, with a lot of the local techniques with a lot of the local indigenous products and produce and yeah. And then how that then kind of manifested itself over 800 years was very clear. It was a big push on the Arabic side of things. But then I think where it became more interesting was when the Moors left, okay? So when the Moors were kind of expelled, they left. And then how then the locals, the locals in Spain, the locals in Sicily then carried on using the techniques and then kind of morphed into this Moorish influence of food. That's, I think, where the most interesting part was, is when the Arabs had actually left.
Suzy Chase: Yeah. So their influence on Spain exceeds the mere ingredients and cuts to the very core of some of the most-
Ben Tish: Yes, yes.
Suzy Chase: Important flavor building techniques.
Ben Tish: Yeah, yeah.
Suzy Chase: For example, they combined sweet with savory.
Ben Tish: When the Moors invaded and when they occupied there, one of the key dishes that was developed there that was eaten widely was what's known as Pinchos Morunos, which is essentially a kebab. It doesn't get more kind of Arabic than the kebab. And they use any meat that they could get their hands on, usually lamb. And they introduced lamb into Andalucia, there and then marinated this meat with spices, smoked paprika, cumin, vinegar, lemon as a preservative, as well as a flavoring, because of, of course, the lack of, no refrigeration in those days. And then cooking over charcoal. Now this dish then has, when the Arabs were there, it was lamb, of course. Then soon as the Arabs left, this dish stayed. But the meat that it morphed into was Iberico pork.
Ben Tish: This dish is still one of the most popular dishes in Andalucia, Pinchos Morunos. They still skewer it, they still cook it over over charcoal or an open fire, but he's with Iberico pork. But they still use those spices that the Arabs, and that for me typifies how the influence was stamped originally, and then it's kind of morphed into what the locals would like.
Suzy Chase: And spices have become a passion of yours too. Right?
Ben Tish: It's a passion in the sense that I love using spices. I have been just using them more and more at work now. But I've always thought that I'd never be an expert with spicing because it's not my natural classical training to abuse spices. I'm very much a kind of a European and classic trained chef. My wife is half Indian, so we cook a lot of Indian food at home. And so spices there, but I just recently opened a restaurant which focuses on Sicily and the Moorish influences on Sicily which is equally as important as Andalucia. And we are using a lot spicing in the cuisine, which is surprising for a lot of people, because people associate Italian, essentially southern Italian food with spicing. But in Sicily, it's prominent. So yeah, we're surprising people with that.
Suzy Chase: And let us not forget the very influential spice of saffron. It's the quintessentially Moorish spice that's used so often in Spanish cooking.
Ben Tish: It's very much so. And indeed in Sicilian cooking as well. I think it's very much so in Spain with the paellas and things like that. But also in Sicily, saffron is very, very popular. In fact, at the restaurant that we have an arancini rice, which is hugely popular.
Suzy Chase: And cumin is the one spice that epitomizes the influence of Moorish cuisine. As home cooks, what interesting things should we be doing with cumin?
Ben Tish: I mean, I suppose there's a few things really. I mean, I would always recommend with spicing [inaudible 00:05:34], even if you're doing grandish too, is if you can, is to buy the whole cumin seeds. Make sure your spices are as fresh as possible. And if you want ground cumin, then grind the spices yourself. If you've got the facilities and means to do that. It's just so much better. It's astonishing how different it is from the bags or jars of pre-ground spices you get. So that would be the first thing I would say.
Ben Tish: I mean, other things I like to do are with marinades. If you're using cumin is to use ground and whole cumin seeds. And then when you grill something, it's got the whole cumin seeds on, they kind of crisp up if you like, and add a really beautiful flavor, but also really interesting texture. It's cumin. Whole cumin has a different effect to grand cumin. Ground cumin's much more intense, the flavor hit. But yeah, if you put cumin seeds in a slow cook dish, they just kind of really, it's got much kind of slower, more subtle flavor. There's two very different things there with ground cumin and a whole cumin seeds.
Suzy Chase: So your love of food developed when you were a young boy growing up in a fishing village on the North sea. Tell us about that.
Ben Tish: That does sound quite a romantic notion that it was a small village and fishing port. In fact, it's definitely by the sea, but it's kind of a seaside town. So how could I describe it? It's kind of a, it's a big tourist destination for amusement [crosstalk 00:07:03]
Suzy Chase: It looked to me like Coney Island does here in New York City.
Ben Tish: Yes. Exactly that. Coney Island, but much smaller and probably not as fun. I'm not really selling it, am I? No, it used to be quite a buzzy place, but it's not so much anymore. But yes, it was all kind of fish and chips. And to be honest, there wasn't really any fishing going on off the coast of there,it was a bit low rent Skegness But nonetheless, my parents had a business which was amusements, and also catering. And they had a big cafe that did fish and chips and all these kinds of British seaside food. So I did a bit of work there as a child, as a young boy helping out. And I suppose was the food we were cooking was not of the best, highest standard and quality. I mean, it probably did get me into cooking a little bit from an early age.
Suzy Chase: The Moors introduced watermelon to Spain towards the end of the 10th century. That's funny because I never put any thought into where watermelon originated.
Ben Tish: Originally, I think it was kind of like Tunisia. Tunisia is a big watermelon growing place. So I think that was probably brought over from there.
Suzy Chase: One recipe in the cookbook that I wasn't familiar with is the Calabrian style sea bream. Can you describe this?
Ben Tish: Yeah, yeah. That's actually one of my favorite dishes. So that is a bit of a spin really on kind of crudo. Essentially raw, very, very lightly cooked or cured fish dishes. So that dish was really a creation of mine. But yeah, raw, essentially raw sea bream very, very fresh. And then tossed with very spicy pate. Two things that are very specific to Calabria are bergamot and Nduja. Nduja was originated in Calabria, and bergamot are grown, there's a few, I'd say 90% of bergamot are grown in Calabria. There's a few grown around Southern Italy and elsewhere, but mainly there. And bergamot is a citrus that has most kind of wonderful, centered kind of exotic aroma and flavor.
Ben Tish: It's not for everybody. I have to say. It's quite floral and if people are eating it or going to eat thinking it's going to taste like an orange, then they're going to be quite mistaken. It's very different, but it works brilliantly with the Nduja. And those two elements as well because they're sharp and fiery and kind of cure the fish. So essentially you can lightly cooking it with those ingredients added.
Suzy Chase: What's the flavor profile of sea bream? I've never had it before.
Ben Tish: Wild sea bream I would akin to wild sea bass.
Suzy Chase: Okay.
Ben Tish: Probably a bit earthier. That's my kind of go to fish, I always have that on my menus.
Suzy Chase: So the Moors played a big part in the development of food throughout mainland Spain. The method of cooking in clay pots came from the Moor's, as did wood-burning ovens. The Moor's in North Africa introduced spicing and complexity into slow cooking, which was the precursor to the tajine. What is your favorite tajine dish?
Ben Tish: It would have to be fairly traditional really, but I love lamb with a apricots and almonds. Very fresh almonds and a little cumin spicing. tajines are kind of traditionally dry, but I've had it where almond milk as well as almonds are added to the tajine. And to give it some moisture, something like lamb neck is great for tajine because you've got a nice fattiness to it. Yeah. Cumin and yeah, apricot's. Apricot's probably dried, the semi-dry Apricot's amazing tajine.
Suzy Chase: So in the cookbook, there is a slow cooked squid recipe. I don't think-
Ben Tish: Yes.
Suzy Chase: I've ever seen a slow cooked squid recipe. I've always seen grilled or fried. Talk a little bit about this.
Ben Tish: You can either cook squid very, very quickly or very slowly. And yeah, I just think it makes for the most meatiest, robust of kind of braises or [raggers 00:11:10] if you like. I think it's one of the best things to eat in in the winter. It's a fantastic thing to do.
Suzy Chase: So in the same vein, talk a bit about the ceremonies celebrated in Granada, Spain called, I think it's called the Christians and the Moors.
Ben Tish: Yeah, no, that's right. And well they've created this dish. There's kind of different versions of the dish around. And I don't know how politically correct the dish is, to be honest with you. But-
Suzy Chase: Yeah, it's weird. In the cookbook it's octopus and smoked paprika with black beans and rice.
Ben Tish: The octopus and smoked paprika is kind of my addition. Fundamentally, it's most basic form, it's black beans, which represent the Moors-
Suzy Chase: That's what I thought.
Ben Tish: And the rice represents the Christians.
Suzy Chase: That's awful.
Ben Tish: So yeah, I know. So, yeah, I mean, that's what it is. And its celebrated and they use a stock to, very basic level, they'll use a fish stock or an octopus stock. But I think I've tried to elevate it. So the octopus piece is probably a more luxurious version that you then you would find at these festivals and so on. You might get an optical stock, but the whole, that I slice pieces of octopus in it and lots of smoked paprika. I've tried to make it a bit more luxurious and exciting. But yeah, it's a very popular thing around this festival time, certainly. And yeah, they're still doing it yet, year after year.
Suzy Chase: Wow.
Ben Tish: Yeah. And I, yeah.
Suzy Chase: So those Moors, they were really smart. Talk about their influence on infrastructure of the Iberian peninsula.
Ben Tish: When they originally invaded, they built inroads into the land, which was kind of hugely undeveloped. As they were building the roads. They planted citrus trees all along the roads as they went for multiple reasons. One being that obviously they wanted the citrus. So all those citrus trees that you find in Seville now, they were originated by the Arabs. One, because they wanted the fruits to us in cooking and perfumes and so on and things like that. But also because of the smell. When they arrived, the smell was unpleasant. So they wanted to mask that smell. So hence created these pits where they planted all these citrus trees. So that was one thing that they did.
Ben Tish: Or they distilled alcohol. That was another thing they did. And that wasn't to drink, obviously, because Arabs do not drink, but they created perfumes and really developed how we now experience perfumes and things. So that's one of the things they created there. The distillation of the alcohol then the locals took to, and started to kind of drink spirits. That's how that bit came about. But yeah, it was the Arabs, they actually created distillation of alcohol when they were there.
Suzy Chase: Tell me about your restaurants, Norma and The Stafford.
Ben Tish: Okay, so The Stafford is a hotel in St. James's, so both in London and then in St. James's. It's an old hotel, old five-star hotel, which has lots of history and royal connections and heritage and it's a beautiful place. It's got a huge wine cellar that runs the length and breadth of the hotel in the basement. And there, we have a restaurant in there called the Game Bird, which is kind of, I suppose a contemporary British restaurant, but we do a lot of British classics in there that have well. That elevated, so British classics such as fish and chips and steak and kidney pie, and those kinds of things. Whole dressed crab, lobster cocktail.
Ben Tish: But things have done really, really well. And there are also, the service and the style has a modern fresh element to it rather than being stuffy and pompous.
Ben Tish: But Norma is a relatively new restaurant. We opened five or six weeks ago. Which is a bit further, I think, North of there. And it's in Fitzrovia. It's a Sicilian restaurant. Sicilian with North African Moorish influences smattered through it in terms of the menu and the decor. And yeah, it's exciting. So we've been open five weeks, and it's very busy. We've been well received and it's going well. Extremely busy, which is good.
Suzy Chase: So last weekend, I made your recipe for gordal olives on page 180. Describe-
Ben Tish: Yeah.
Suzy Chase: This dish and what gordal olives are.
Ben Tish: So yeah, gordal olives are, they're beautiful big juicy olives from Seville or around Seville. Yeah, gordal is essentially fat. There's such a great olive, one, because they're very tasty. But two they're ideal for stuffing. Yeah, we stuffed these ones with a whipped goat's curd or goats cheese, little pieces of orange, and then a little bit of salt and cumin. We make a little mix of cumin seeds and salt, and just sprinkle that on there as well and drizzle with olive oil. And that just make the most amazing tapa I suppose. Or just pre-dinner. With pre-dinner drinks, it's absolutely perfect. Such a delicious dish there, actually.
Suzy Chase: Now for my segment called my favorite cookbook. Aside from this cookbook, what is your all time favorite cookbook, and why?
Ben Tish: I could spend hours on this. So I really am a [crosstalk 00:16:41].
Suzy Chase: I'm sure.
Ben Tish: I am, I've got so many cookbooks at home. It's ridiculous. My wife hates it because we're kind of, everybody's groaning with it. But I suppose just thinking straight out loud, would be The Moro Cookbook, which is by Sam Clark, and it's the original Walden, which is from a restaurant called Moro. I don't know if you're familiar with it.
Suzy Chase: No.
Ben Tish: It's in London. Yeah, it's still there, which is great. It's probably been open about, I'd say, probably about 15 or 16 years now. And they explore Spain. and there's a Moorish element to it. They go further afield though, rather than staying in Spain and focusing on the Moorish influence there, they go further afield and go into North Africa. And it was a groundbreaking book. The book came out probably about 12, 13 years ago. And it's most definitely, even now, it's a book I go back to, and just get some little hints and tips. And you know a cookbook's good when all the pages are kind of grubby and thumbed and greasy and from cooking-
Suzy Chase: Totally.
Ben Tish: And that is that book. And it's the first one. And yeah, I've got no problem saying that that's my favorite cookbook.
Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?
Ben Tish: Ben.Tish, @Ben.Tish. I'm kind of mostly found on there, in terms of food. And the normal website is www.normalondon.com I think they're probably the two main places you'd find me.
Suzy Chase: Well, thanks for writing about this interesting fusion of flavors, and thanks so much for coming on Cookery by the Book podcast.
Ben Tish: Great. Thank you very much for having me on.
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