One: Pot, Pan, Planet | Anna Jones
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Intro: Welcome to the number one cookbook podcast, Cookery by the Book with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table, talking to cookbook authors.
Anna Jones: I'm Anna Jones. I'm a food writer and my latest book One: Pot, Pan, Planet is a collection of recipes and a greener way to cook for your family.
Suzy Chase: When you started writing this cookbook in late 2018, the world was a different place. But now, we are at a turning point in 2022. Talk a bit about how you and your cookbooks have shifted over the years. And, what has changed?
Anna Jones: Well, I think lots and lots of things have changed. I think, first of all, the food landscape has completely changed since I first started writing my cookbooks 10 years ago or so. The words vegetarian, or vegan or plant-based had very different connotations. When my first book came out and it was all vegetarian food, I felt like I had some persuading to do, to engage people and convince people that actually eating in this way is joyful and vibrant, and not the mung bean casseroles that they might have had imagined.
Anna Jones: So I think that's one thing, but obviously the last two years have really shifted things around food. And this book, One, it had to change because I'd written most of it pre-2019. When I was home in lockdown and we were cooking in a different way, it pulled focus on the importance of food, on the importance of producers, on the importance of, I guess, the supply chain. That moment where we couldn't get a bag of flour and everyone was running around trying to get their hands on eggs, I think it really changed stuff for me in the kitchen. And made me realize, even more, the importance of recipes being flexible.
Anna Jones: And, I really want my books to be a blueprint, a springboard, a source of ideas for people. But also, once someone cooks a recipe in their own kitchen, I want it to be their own. I want them to have the confidence to switch up fresh tomatoes for canned tomatoes. Or, preserved lemons for a squeeze of lemon and some lemon zest. I think that's such an important part of cooking and the last couple of years has just made me feel that even more.
Suzy Chase: So you just mentioned that the food landscape has changed. What does that mean?
Anna Jones: I think we've all become much more conscious of what we are putting in our bodies. I think we've become more conscious of providence. I don't mean everyone, I mean lots of people have become more aware of where their food comes from, of the fact that eating well, or eating more vegetables, eating more vibrant, exciting, delicious but nutrient dense food is really important. I also think the landscape around eating consciously and the effect that our diet and the way we cook has on the world around us has completely shifted.
Anna Jones: There were definitely people talking about it 10 years ago. There were people probably talking about it 20 or 30 years ago. But in the last couple of years particularly, I think this impact of what we eat and this personal responsibility that we have to make sure that we are leaving the planet not so much worse off than how we found it. And I think food is a really exciting part of that because, in order to eat in a conscious way, we don't have to be eating worthy, boring, unexciting food. There is a way of eating delicious, vibrant, amazing food but also food that is conscious, that has a light footprint. That's really what this book is all about.
Suzy Chase: I love this line in the cookbook. You wrote, "We need to bring some connection and kindness back to the way we support our farmers, and those who grow and harvest our food. Let's put kindness and joy at the heart of how we cook and eat."
Suzy Chase: I've heard you talk about the delicacy of the food chain. You just mentioned how you had a hard time finding flour during the pandemic lockdown and that really encouraged you to think about the humans. I'd love for you to talk about that.
Anna Jones: Yeah, absolutely. I think we have become quite disconnected with where our food comes from and I think there have been steps made back in a positive direction in recent years.
Anna Jones: The food chain is such a clinical way of describing how the food that nourishes us comes from the farmer to our plate. And actually, I like to think about it is a chain of humans, bringing that nourishment to me and to my family. Farming is not an easy job, but especially in the last couple of years and especially with all the challenges with climate that are happening. And the love and attention of that farmer, even the person who's transporting the food from the farm to the store, these are all humans. I think when we humanize that chain, I think it becomes more difficult for us to waste food or throw food in the bin, because it's the people.
Anna Jones: I think the more we can connect with that, you value it more, and you're less likely to throw it away and more likely to support that farmer who is perhaps growing their food in a more sustainable way.
Suzy Chase: You're so right. The food chain is so clinical. You think about it is as a book in school, and you just see a picture of the farmer, and then a picture of the piece of corn. I think for so long, we just thought about it as a flow chart.
Anna Jones: You're right. I think, quite often, food is presented in school in those diagrams. I don't know if you have, in the US, that food pyramid which has the protein at the top, and then the carbohydrates, and then the vegetables down at the bottom. To me, there's a reason why no one remembers that food pyramid, because it's not exciting, it's not real, it's not tactile. It's not any of the things that food is to me, that is connective and joyful. Food's really the great connector. It's the one thing that all of us, hopefully, do three times a day.
Anna Jones: So boiling food down to those diagrams and flow charts just makes absolutely no sense to me. When I'm talking to kids about food or to my son about food, he needs to feel, he needs to touch. He needs to understand that the broccoli might make his arms strong or that the carbohydrates might help him run a bit faster. I really think that, when food is presented like that, it takes the joy away. Joy is really the overriding emotion I feel about food and I feel about how it connects us.
Suzy Chase: So in the cookbook and what we've been talking about is where the food comes from. And then, you go one step further about how it moves through our kitchen. It's so interesting. Can you describe that?
Anna Jones: Well yeah, absolutely. I think when I was researching this book, obviously primarily it's a recipe book, and it's filled with all the recipes and things that I love to cook. The second dimension to this book is thinking about how it impacts the world around us.
Anna Jones: When I started looking into that, one part of the puzzle that has been largely ignored is the amount of energy we use when we cook. I think lots of chefs and cookbooks, and myself included in that, at times, can encourage you to turn on two gas hobs and an oven, and perhaps this food processor, and then sometimes a grill, just to make one dish. I hadn't really considered how much energy that was actually using.
Anna Jones: So by grouping the recipes in this book around things that you can do in one pot, or one pan or just one tray, like a tray bake that goes in the oven, I'm hopefully helping to reduce, first of all, the human effort. The amount of washing up you have to do, which also has an environmental impact. But also, reducing the amount of energy we use. It doesn't sound that sexy, I can completely appreciate that. But if we're all trying to make an effort to shop carefully and reduce our impact in other ways, then I think this is a really important piece of the puzzle. Here, and in the US. About a third of our energy is used in the kitchen, so it's a really big thing.
Anna Jones: I think, quite often, the sustainability conversation can require you to go to a bougie farmer's market or biodynamic produce, which actually does cut a lot of people out of the conversation. But this bit, where you're saving energy, actually is useful for every single household. It's saving everyone money and it's a really important part of the discussion.
Suzy Chase: How is this cookbook organized?
Anna Jones: It's organized by the vessel or the thing that you cook in. So by things that go in one pot, so that's just one pot on the stove, everything goes in it. I might add onions first, and then garlic, and then build up the flavor in that pot. But essentially, you will be cooking in one pot. One pan are things that are cooked in one frying pan, one skillet. Quite often, they start sometimes on the hob and go in the oven or just go in the oven. And then, one tray, so tray bakes, also tray bake cakes and sweets. And then, there's a chapter on really, really quick cooking. That's stuff that comes together in under 20 minutes.
Anna Jones: I organized it like that because I feel like, sometimes, when I come in from work, obviously I'm a professional cook and chef. But, I think when I come back home and want to cook something for my son, I cook under the same constraints as anyone else. I just want something easy that I can put in the oven and forget about. So that's why I organized it that way. I would say 90% of the recipes in here are savory, so it's a lot of lunches and dinners.
Suzy Chase: I love your one vegetable chapter because so often, I want to make broccoli, squash, peas, potatoes and I can't think of any interesting variations. So you have 10 ideas for so many of our every day go-to vegetables. Can you talk a little bit about that chapter?
Anna Jones: That really links in with what I was talking about, about this kind of flexible cooking. This using a recipe as a jumping off point. And, it also works with reducing waste in your kitchen as well. Because quite often, they'll be a bit of broccoli at the end or a few tomatoes, and it might not be enough to make the tomato recipe that you love to make but you want to use those up. So I think having these really flexible ideas is actually really useful.
Anna Jones: I looked at what are the top 10 vegetables, both here and in the US. And I wrote 10 very fluid recipes for all of those vegetables. And it's actually been the part of the book that I think people seem to be referring to most, because I think it is just a really good jumping off point. You can cook these recipes for one person, you can cook them for eight people. And I think the format of the recipe, because it's not a full recipe on a page with an ingredients list, is a bit more fluid and I think encourages people to feel a bit more relaxed, and perhaps creative, around how they cook.
Suzy Chase: I adore that you love peas, I do, too. So many people don't and I don't get it.
Anna Jones: I know. I absolutely love peas. I just think they are, especially at this time of year, through the winter, they are just an absolutely staple in our house. Because there aren't as many fresh, green things around, so I really, really lean on them for that fresh, springy flavor.
Anna Jones: They're so adaptable. In this book, I've got a salad that I make with them. You can make it with fresh peas in the summer, sure, or in the spring. But, you can equally use frozen peas. It uses dates, which I fry until they go chewy and sticky. And lemon, and then a base of ricotta. It's really surprising, but the bulk of it is the humble frozen pea. I make soups with it. I think peas can go in so many directions.
Suzy Chase: This week, I'm going to make your Peas, Salted Lemon, Sticky Dates that you just alluded to, on page 184. And I cannot wait to make it. It sounds so different and interesting.
Anna Jones: It's a recipe I really, really love actually. And it's one of the recipes that I think a lot of people have said to me that has really surprised them. It's one of those recipes where the ingredients end up being more than a sum of their parts and those are the recipes I love the most. Where the process is fairly simply, the ingredients are great quality, but also fairly simple and fairly affordable. But when you eat it you're like, "Hold on a second."
Anna Jones: I think the thing that really sets that recipe apart ... First of all, it's the lemons which are salted and bring a real zing. It's not too zesty, but it sits against the ricotta and the peas really beautifully. But, it's the dates which I think really, really make it sing. Because I fry those until they are crisp and chewy on the outside. So you've got that gorgeous, Medjool date, almost fudginess on the inside. On the outside, the sugars caramelize and you get this wonderful, intense chew texture. And that, next to the really clean freshness of the ricotta, the sweetness of the peas and the lemon, it's a dish I make all year. Yeah. And also, that technique with dates, stolen from that recipe and I use all over the place now.
Suzy Chase: So, Jaime Oliver was a huge influence on you. When did you start working with him and what would you say was your biggest takeaway?
Anna Jones: Well, I started working with Jaime a long time ago now, it's nearly 20 years. It's not far off 20 years ago I started working for him. It's miraculous to think that it's been that long. But, I worked with him for seven years and it was a rollercoaster of fun and craziness. It was at the point where he'd just started to campaign about school dinners here in the UK. I think he was on his third or fourth book. So it was really at a moment where he was in his assent, so it was just a wonderful time to work with him, to learn about how he did things, about cookbooks, about recipe writing.
Anna Jones: I think my main takeaway, and there were many actually from working with Jaime, was his real belief that food can be used as a force for good, as a force for change. I'm all about food just being the simple thing it is. Quite often, just a lovely recipe that you're cooking for your family, or a pizza on a Friday night and a beer with friends. I don't think it always has to be this thing. But, I often think that there's more complex issues, like climate, like the environment, like migration, like race and gender, that actually really, everything is in the conversation of food. Food encompasses everything because it encompasses our heritage, it encompasses our families. It's so connected to our emotions.
Anna Jones: I think Jaime really taught me that food is sometimes a really great way of having those conversations with people, in a gentler and more open way than it would be if you'd bowled in to talking about a subject. And obviously, the work that he's done has promoted great change here and across the world, actually. But yeah, I think that was really the core belief that he has, and definitely translated to me and has informed all the work that I've done since.
Suzy Chase: The other night, I made your recipe on page 171 for Broccoli on Toast. And, I love this because I can honestly say, I've had enough of avocado toast. So tell the story about how this recipe came to you, when you were visiting your sister in Los Angeles.
Anna Jones: Yeah. Well, a lot of my food inspiration has come from my trips to LA and California. And all over the US, I have to say. And I usually spend a few weeks a year, going to visit my sister in LA. We went to a really lovely restaurant called Kismet, which I'm sure lots of your listeners will know. And they made a broccoli, tahini toast situation there, which I really, really loved. It just felt so simple and easy. Toast is a great vehicle for more exciting stuff and that's why I got really excited about this broccoli.
Anna Jones: We've hit peak avocado on toast, haven't we?
Suzy Chase: Yes.
Anna Jones: And actually, if you live here in the UK, avocados are not grown locally. We get a few from Italy at a specific time of the year, but they're not the most sustainable thing for us to eat. This was my way of translating that dish, which I lived, which is tahini, seeds, charred broccoli on a charred piece of sourdough or whatever bread you have around. It would also be great on a charred flatbread. But, that was my way of encouraging people to perhaps experiment with putting some other vegetables on toast.
Suzy Chase: And here's the fig again, I made your Fig and Halva Sundae on page 210. I adore sundaes and have never thought about combining fig and ice cream. You say, "The magic of the sundae never gets old."
Anna Jones: I love sundaes. I'm not someone that spends a huge amount of time making fancy desserts, so for me, sundaes feel like a really fun way of having dessert. If I have people around, quite often I'll just buy good ice cream and make something like this.
Anna Jones: This sundae uses lovely figs. Halva, I'm sure lots of your listeners will be familiar with it. But if not, it's a delicious sesame seed, almost crumbly brick. It's a bit like fudge, but it's crumblier. Any Middle Eastern deli, you'll be able to buy it there. It's just got this sweetness from the honey, but a real interesting, rounded flavor from the sesame. It's got the same feeling as tahini. And, layering that up with vanilla ice cream and with figs. It's a dessert that takes literally about three minutes to put together, but it feels decadent. It feels grown up. It feels like the kind of thing that you'd be really proud to put on a table, if you had people around.
Anna Jones: There's just something really joyful and fun about a sundae, and childlike and carefree, and I love it.
Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called Dream Dinner Party, where I ask you who you most want to invite to your dream dinner party and why. And for this segment, it can only be one person.
Anna Jones: You know what I think I would love would be to sit down with my paternal grandma. We used to call her Mam. She was from Wales. She had 12 children, so my dad is number nine of 12. I have one son and all the way through my parenting journey, I just cannot believe or cannot fathom what it must be like to have 12 children. She was just a wonderful matriarch of the family. She was an incredible cook. She cooked individual dinners for the 12 kids, meetings all of their different palettes and needs. She was just constantly in the kitchen. And sadly, she passed away when I was about seven, so before I really managed to get into the kitchen, and stand by her side and see her peeling five kilos of potatoes. I would just love to connect with her and talk to her about how it was, to be a mother to so many children. And just learn a bit more about her and learn some of her recipes. I think that would be it for me.
Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?
Anna Jones: I have a website, which is annajones.co.uk. And the best place to find me is on Instagram, which my handle is @we_are_food. Not that catchy, but there we go. If you search for Anna Jones in Instagram, I'll pop up.
Suzy Chase: To purchase One: Pot, Pan, Planet and support the podcast, head on over to cookerybythebook.com. And thank you so much, Anna, for coming on Cookery by the Book Podcast.
Anna Jones: Oh, what a pleasure. Thank you so much, Suzy.
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