The Hidden Table | Shannon Smith
Suzy Chase: When two podcasts collide, magic happens. Welcome to Dinner Party, the podcast where I bring together my two hit shows, Cookery by the Book and Decorating by the Book around here. We're all about cooking, sharing stories behind recipes, and creating a cozy home. I'm your host, Suzy Chase, a West Village wife, mom and home cook. Inspired by Martha Stewart trying to live in a Nora Ephron movie, surrounded by toile, plaid cookbooks, decorating books and magazines, cooking in my galley kitchen and living my best life in my darling New York City apartment in the cutest neighborhood in the city, the West Village. So come hang out and let's get into the show.
Shannon Smith: I'm Shannon Smith. I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I am here to talk about my newly released cookbook, T--he Hidden Table.
Suzy Chase: I'm one of your biggest cheerleaders, your incredible, and I want the world to get to know Shannon Smith, my dear friend and gal, born and raised in Oklahoma. And I think you embody the idea that the kitchen table is one of the most important places for human connection in my eyes. You are the female Anthony Bourdain, traveling around the world making legitimate human connections while making and sharing meals. Can you just talk a little bit about how we met
Shannon Smith: Susie? This is, I have been looking forward to this day for years because I think we met and we haven't really determined, it was probably six or seven years ago. I, for whatever reason, saw you on Instagram for whatever reason. I don't remember the situation. I don't remember how I found you, but I messaged you and we had a conversation and I knew so quickly that we were going to become friends. I know, and it was shortly after that that I went to New York for a meeting and you and I met for coffee afterwards and we have been dear friends ever since. You are the highlight of every visit to New York City.
Suzy Chase: No, we went to the IACP thing,
Shannon Smith: Right.
Suzy Chase: Remember that? And everyone was boring.
Shannon Smith: Oh, it was awful.
Suzy Chase: It was so bad. Except for us.
Shannon Smith: Yeah. For anyone that doesn't get to eat dinner with you in New York City, I am sorry for them because you and I have some of the most really uplifting conversations. You've always encouraged me and I've tried to do the same for you. And you know so many people and you're a connector. I've just always appreciated you and I enjoy every minute that we have together.
Suzy Chase: Oh, thank you. Same. Totally the same. I brought Oklahoma because I want you to start with your story from when you were a divorced mother of two, working hard to make ends meet because looking at your life now, glamorous stress-free filled with travel and Instagram worthy stories, it's hard to imagine. It wasn't always this way. So let's start with that journey because it's one of the things that I think is so inspirational about you.
Shannon Smith: Thank you. I'm going to correct only one word In that little description you said, you said stress-free. The good thing is that life that I'm getting ready to tell you about was full of stress and that was bad stress. But now any stress that I have now is what I call good stress if there is such a thing, because I'm just so happy and living my best life. Now, my previous or my first career was as a seamstress, and I started sewing when I was a little girl. And when I got to high school, started taking home economics, had the most amazing teacher for all four years of high school, and it was through her that I decided I wanted to pursue home economics. That's what I got my bachelor's degree in. Home economics involves cooking, sewing, home homemaking, all those things. And back in the eighties it was a thing, and I think it's coming back now, thank goodness, but my emphasis was on sewing and that was what I loved.
I didn't cook. I knew the basics, but I got married in graduate school and had 10 years with this man. We had two wonderful children, but I had this sewing business where I was sewing 16 hours a day at least for the elite women in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I was the sole breadwinner, and it was a very stressful, stressful life for me. And so this transitions to 10 years later when I decided to ask for a divorce, and my attorney said to me, Shannon, because I wanted sole custody of my children, she said, Shannon, you need to get a job with a paycheck because we have to prove to the judge you can financially support your children. Because at the time I was sewing and just taking checks and cash because back then you couldn't take credit cards if you weren't a legitimate business. And so I got a job from a nonprofit here in Tulsa, and they asked me to teach cooking and nutrition to a group of children at an apartment complex.
This was a state funded apartment complex. So the kids would come after school. I had an empty apartment that I got to use this little kitchen, I mean the tiniest little kitchen. And I was told these kids would come and I would teach them whatever I wanted and then feed them, and they came to get fed, but I required that they had to learn to cook also. And the interesting thing about that situation was I was told that half of the residents were Russian and half of them were black and that they did not get along. But what I saw was these kids of both sides coming to my little cooking classes and eventually becoming friends even long after I had gone. And I worked there for a couple of years. In addition to working in that apartment complex, I taught at Catholic charities for unwed mothers. And that whole job ignited a new passion for me, which was teaching and cooking, but I wasn't a good cook. I didn't know that much about cooking. So that's when I went to a culinary school here in Tulsa and really pursued my love for both teaching and cooking.
Suzy Chase: Fast forward to today, and you've traveled to over 50 countries. Did you know back then that you wanted to travel? Did you always have the travel bug?
Shannon Smith: My senior year in college, I did a study abroad in Vienna, Austria, and during those four or five months, I got to travel around Europe and of course loved it. Came back to the US and said, I'm getting out of Oklahoma. I had this really attitude. Of course, I've been in Oklahoma my whole life and I love it here, and I look back and laugh at that. But it did ignite a real interest in traveling. But it wasn't until 15 years later when I did remarry after that first marriage and my husband, who I'm not married to anymore, but he started taking me around the world. We would travel a lot. That's where it started, was there.
Suzy Chase: So in the cookbook world, there's often discussion about cultural appropriation, especially when white American women travel and hijack recipes without honoring their origins. But your approach to food, however, is the complete opposite. You engage with these cultures in a deeply respectful way. Talk a little bit about your travels and how you engage with different cultures around food.
Shannon Smith: When I was traveling with my husband early in our marriage, we were doing the traditional or typical touristy things like going to monuments and museums and fancy restaurants. And that was the time when I was studying cooking and really getting interested in cultures from what I was reading at home. And so when we would travel, I just had this itch that I was not that interested in the monuments and things. I was so much more focused on the food. And I would go in markets and I would see these people selling things, and I wanted to talk to them so badly and I wanted to learn from them. And we were planning our next trip. I asked my husband, and this was 20 years ago when food tours and cooking abroad was not real popular like it is now. And he said, find some classes to do.
We were going to Italy. It was like our third trip to Italy. So I did start meeting people, and I have been since then to 53 countries, many of them multiple times, Italy, I've been over 40 times. I go about three times a year, but over the years, and I will back up and say that I did start traveling alone because my husband wasn't that interested in the food part. So he would encourage me to go and do this on my own, which I did and continue to do. But back to your question, I have a knack for meeting people and getting their trust in me that I am genuine and that I truly care about people and that I truly want to know their stories and their traditions and their recipes. And many people around the world have invited me into their homes or their restaurant kitchens or their fishing boats or their campfires, which I call the hidden tables around the world, and they trust me. And then I bring those stories and recipes back to the US and share it with people here. So I do try to be very genuine with people that are willing to share with me, and I give them full credit. When I come back, I tell their stories and I give them credit for those recipes that I share.
Suzy Chase: Now when I say, you're the female Anthony Bourdain, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Because you go around the world and you don't meet a stranger, you have such a gift.
Shannon Smith: I think that that comes with just being genuine and I'm just being vulnerable and not coming across as pretentious. And people ask me all the time, how do you meet all these people? And I have so many stories, Suzy, and you and I have talked about many of them about how these connections are made. And most of them are unplanned, but some of them are planned. And I do that by finding people on the internet, finding people on social media, and just reaching out and telling them who I am and what I do. I have a really good website. And so when I refer people to that, because I think it really tells my story and hopefully comes across the fact that I truly care about people and that convinces them that, okay, I'll meet her. And then when we do, it usually turns into a long time friendship. And then what's even better or equal is that they will often connect to me, well, now you need to meet so-and-so and then you need to meet so-and-so and I'm going to take you here and let's go here. That's how it happens. So it's a high compliment from you to say that I remind you of Anthony Bourdain. I have so much respect for him, and he traveled more gritty than I do, but thank you for that compliment.
Suzy Chase: So throughout your culinary adventures, which recipe or ingredient has the most challenging to recreate at home?
Shannon Smith: My second favorite country, and I probably insinuated that my first favorite country is Italy, but my second is
Suzy Chase: Mexico. Wait, let Mexico guess it. Oh, I was going to say India.
Shannon Smith: No, but that's up there.
Suzy Chase: Mexico's number two.
Shannon Smith: Mexico's number two, and I discovered Mexico. Of course, I'd been before over the years to the beaches and the resorts. But during Covid, when we couldn't go to Europe, couldn't go to most places, Mexico opened up pretty quickly for us to come and travel. And so I started traveling to Mexico and found some amazing people that have cooked with me and shared their lives with me. And probably since the pandemic, I've been probably 10 times to Mexico and I'm talking all over in little villages and met just some incredible people. So when I travel, I bring back tons of food, lots of food. I nearly always have to purchase a suitcase in other places, and I fill it with food and bring it back to the us. And when I say food, I'm talking spices, nuts, chilies. I have this thing for dried chilies all over the world, but particularly Mexico is where I purchase a lot of dried chilies, and I mean kilos of dried chilies.
So when I come back to the US and try to recreate some of those dishes that I've learned in Mexico, it's sometimes difficult because there are so many incredible ingredients that are grown in Mexico that I think we take it for granted that much of our produce here in the US is grown in Mexico and they do an amazing job. But when I'm trying to recreate some of these moles and other sauces that I've learned in Mexico, some of those ingredients I just can't get. And so it's frustrating to me because I want to recreate what I did in Mexico. I can get there almost, but not to the extent that I learned.
Suzy Chase: Talk a little bit about the dinners you have at your home, and if you've just come back from Mexico, do you recreate a meal that you had in Mexico for a big dinner at your house?
Shannon Smith: For about the last 10 years, I have been putting on these dinner parties. I call them experiential dinners. So like you said, when I come back from Mexico, I might put on a dinner that I call a night in Mexico. It might be a taste of Mexico. Let's see, Puebla or a taste of Michoacán so a different region. So sometimes I do regional dinners the same from a night in India, a night in Morocco. The most popular dinners that I do are I call around the world dinners where it's five or six courses, and each course is from a different country. I also teach cooking classes with the same intent. Those have become really popular here in Tulsa, and I've been doing them other places around the US and even abroad. Last month I was in Sicily and got to cook a dinner in a vineyard for about 30 people.
And I knew I did not want to cook Italian food for Sicilians. So I cooked an around the world dinner and I took a lot of ingredients with me and made hummus and curry. I can't even remember what all the flatbread with humara from Turkey. And then the dessert I made chocolate brownies was from the us and they loved it. They were so appreciative because they had never eaten many of those types of foods. And the same is true here in Tulsa because I not only give a five or six course dinner, but I tell stories. I love to tell stories between each course about the dish or the ingredients that are in it or the people that taught me. So my hope is that at the end of the night, my guests feel like they were in that place with me.
Suzy Chase: Talk about your cookbook and how it came about and how it's organized.
Shannon Smith: I never in my wildest dreams thought I would write a book. I am not a trained writer. You, well, no, not a book. I was writing the recipes and I was writing some stories and putting them on the website. It never occurred to me to write a book except that people would often ask me, when are you going to write a book? And I would say, that's never going to happen for whatever reason, and I do not even remember. I wish I could remember that moment.
Suzy Chase: Lightbulb moment.
Shannon Smith: Yeah, I'm going to try this. So six years ago I decided, and it was IACP meeting or conference
Suzy Chase: Snoozer,
Shannon Smith: Not the one where you went, I've only been to two of their conferences, so must
Suzy Chase: That's enough. Second one.
Shannon Smith: And I went solely for the purpose of going to some workshops on cookbook writing or publishing. I went to one workshop where they talked about how to publish a cookbook. I walked out of there so deflated and so upset. They said, well, you have to have million followers. Not quite that, but you have to be famous. You have to be interesting. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm interesting, but I didn't qualify anywhere else. And it, it's brutal. The publisher's going to change everything, and they have complete control. I mean, I was just so deflated. So then I went to another workshop the next day on self-publishing. Well, I was discouraged after that one too, because they talked about how difficult that is, and you have to have editors and you have to find a printer and a designer and all this. But I thought, okay, that's maybe attainable.
I might be able to do this way, but then I got to write the book first. So I did end up hiring those editors and finding I had a wonderful team that helped me and encouraged me. It was really difficult, particularly during the pandemic, because I got a divorce during that time, and so it was hard to write during that period. So I had moments, and again, I'm not trained to write, so it was extremely difficult for me to write the stories. I had a wonderful recipe editor, Deri Reed, who's in New York, who that's all she does is edit recipes. And she taught me how to write recipes correctly, which is a fascinating concept because there's an art to that. But I eventually finished the book. It is called The Hidden Table. And as I mentioned before, it is about many of the hidden tables.
And I say that in quotes around the world where I've cooked, and the people that taught me, I mentioned 80 people, 80 different names in the book, 12 chapters, and each chapter is a different place in the world. Some of them are countries. It might be Italy and India, Indonesia, Israel, those are my four eyes. Then there's one called the Andes of South America, which covers four countries along the Andes. And then there's only one chapter that is from the us and that's the chapter called New Mexico, which is a special state for me because that's where my mother's family is from. It is also, they have the most unique cuisine there in New Mexico, which includes the chilies, the red and green chilies. As I mentioned before, I love chilies, and so the food from there is very special to me. So that's the chapter on New Mexico.
Suzy Chase: One time you told me a story about how you went to this really remote place and it was all women. Does that ring a bell?
Shannon Smith: This is a good transition. I tell this story a little bit in the Caribbean chapter. This is through the microfinance work that I was doing.
Suzy Chase: Yes,
Shannon Smith: The Caribbean chapter is about the back of a tapestry because it's not as beautiful as the front of the tapestry.
Suzy Chase: Oh, wait, what do you mean by that? It's so poetic.
Shannon Smith: I had only been going to the Caribbean to visit the resorts and the beautiful beaches. And what many people don't realize is that many of those countries in the Caribbean are third world countries. And when you go just a few yards behind these luxury resorts, there's extreme poverty. And many of them don't have electricity or running water. And I was able to visit some of those villages in Dominican Republic through the programs that I was working in microfinance. So microfinance is a banking program where small loans are given to individuals, mostly women because they're the most interested really, in micro loans. And they can start their own businesses. And these are very small loans. This program works mostly in third world countries. And my husband and I supported many of these organizations around the world, but I was able to go to Dominican Republic to actually work with some of these women who had already received loans.
They were paying them back with their little businesses. And so I went as kind of an incentive for a group of women who were in good standing on their loans. They got to come to some cooking classes that I would put on in their village, and I had some incredible experiences with that. I went on two different trips, and again, no electricity, no running water, but I taught them how to make different dishes using food that they grew or food that they had in their markets. And I made sure to choose things that they probably had never made before. The facilitators that I was working with, with the microfinance program, they were my translators because there was only Spanish spoken there. And I would ask them, what kind of ingredients do you have? What am I going to walk into when I get there? So I had a little bit of guidance on that, but I had to be very creative once I got there and realized in the markets what they had.
And I have a little story on that if I could tell. I wanted to teach them. And by the way, these women, many of them had never met an American woman, and many of them did not understand why I would come and do this for them. And they were so gracious, and it was really emotional experiences with these women. They were so happy that I had come, but one of the dishes I wanted to teach them was lemon meatballs. So this is a dish that I had learned in Rome. It's an Italian dish. I cannot remember the Italian name for it, but it's meatballs made with ground beef and a lot of lemon inside, and they're delicious. So I thought, well, that would be a unique thing because I knew they had ground beef. And so when I went to the market, there were no lemons, and I asked my translator, where can I get lemons?
She said, we don't have lemons in Dominican Republic. We only have limes. And I thought, well, okay, then we'll make lime meatballs. So I bought all these limes. So I bought the beef and went to this class. And this was, I'm telling you to get to this village is a whole different story. But once we got there, I'm under this 10 roof dirt floor, and 30 women show up for this. And I'm standing up there with my translator and I'm telling the story and making these meatballs. And they had this giant iron pot over a fire, and they put oil in it. They knew I needed to fry the meatballs, and it was so hot and so humid. And so I'm making these meatballs with all the lime. I don't know how this is going to turn out, but while I'm cooking these meatballs and I have a photo of me standing there just sweating the steam coming up, and these women are fanning me and singing gospel songs in Spanish, it was absolutely amazing. But those meatballs were so good, and I know that the whole story and the experience contributed to them being delicious. But when I came home, I thought, I'm never doing this with lemon. Maybe not never. But since then, and it's been probably nine years ago that I did this, I have only made them with limes. And it's because of that story and because I just have such a great remembrance of that.
Suzy Chase: Have you gone back?
Shannon Smith: Yes. So I went back and they took me to a different part of the island. So it was a different group of people. And again, I didn't know what ingredients that they would have. Oh, I know I had asked the facilitator, I said, why don't you ask the women when they're at their lone meeting, which they meet once a week, asked them what they'd like me to teach them. And she wrote me back and said, they want to learn how to make Italian food. And I thought, well, that's interesting. I wonder how they know about Italian food. So I thought, well, I'm not going to take a bunch of dried pasta over there because maybe I'm not going to teach them something they can't make after I leave. But I knew they grew a lot of potatoes. So what do you think? I taught them how to make
Suzy Chase: Gnocchi
Shannon Smith: Of course. So I taught three different classes to, and each class had 30 people in it, and we of course had to do this all outside. So someone had brought a little portable gas cooktop. Again, there's no electricity. Well, we had to cook the potatoes first. And I took with me all these risers, those little hand risers, and I took a bunch of them and left them for them to use. And so we're ric potatoes, and we're making the dough, and we're out on these wooden tables rolling gnocchi. Then we have to boil the water so we can cook the gnocchi. And then I taught them how to make three different sauces. And one was just a simple tomato sauce. They had tomatoes, and another was like a pesto using just whatever herbs they had. And then the third was like a ragu with the sausage that they had made locally. So they had three different sauces they could put on their gnocchi. And when I got home, I was telling my husband about this experience, teaching 90 women how to make gnocchi, and we decided that in a hundred years, if the national food of Dominican Republic is gnocchi, I know where it started.
It's so enriching for me to get to work with women in particular and particularly impoverished people who wouldn't have these opportunities. In January of next year, I'm going to go to India and I found an organization, and again, it's just asking. I just ask questions. I ask, find people that can connect me, and I'm going to work with a group of homeless women in New Delhi and do some workshops with them. So I'm really excited about that. It's been a few years since I've been able to do a project like this.
Suzy Chase: So now for my segment called The Perfect Bite where I ask you to describe your perfect bite of a favorite dish, but I'm changing it up this week, and I'm going to ask you what your perfect Thanksgiving plate looks like. Oh, no,
Shannon Smith: You may regret this. I don't particularly like Thanksgiving.
Suzy Chase: Wait, why?
Shannon Smith: My mom was not a great cook. She did not enjoy cooking, and she did it. We had a dinner every night, but it was so stressful for her, and I just remember thinking, this is just awful. And then we'd sit down at the table and be finished in 20 minutes, and then we'd wash dishes all day. And then as an adult, it was kind of the same thing. I had two children and I was a single mom for several years, five years, and every other Thanksgiving, I didn't get to be with my children, which was sad for me. So I just have some not so great memories of Thanksgiving. I like to travel on Thanksgiving, Suzy. I mean, people ask me all the time, oh, are you cooking a feast? I'm like, no. So I'm going to answer your question.
Suzy Chase: Oh, man. Okay. Okay, hit it.
Shannon Smith: I am going to tell you this. One of my daughter's favorite Thanksgivings of her life with me is the year that I made an Indian feast. So I like to change it up Thanksgiving. This year, I'm going to be in Colorado watching the Colorado Buffaloes play football. My perfect bite on Thanksgiving is going to be nachos. My favorite food is nachos. If I was on death row and they said, what's your last meal? I'd say, I want a big platter of nachos.
Suzy Chase: Okay. Shannon Smith needs a television show like Anthony Bourdain. There's a big hole in the market for this, and Shannon needs it.
Shannon Smith: I think so too. Everyone asks me, don't you want a cooking show? And I say, no. I want a travel show. I would love to have a film crew. And I do travel with my photographer who gets to capture a lot of my travels, but just some of the experiences I have are remarkable and I think would be a good teaching moment and entertaining. So thank you for recognizing that. There's that possibility.
Suzy Chase: So CNN, Sunday nights at nine.
Shannon Smith: That's right. Come watch. It'd be a great show, I think.
Suzy Chase: Yes. And you're darling. You're so cute and you're fun and funny. Anyway,
Shannon Smith: We do laugh, Suzy, I think we've almost been kicked out of a couple of restaurants in New York.
Suzy Chase: Well, let's not forget that time that I almost got into it with your publicist.
Shannon Smith: Oh my gosh.
Suzy Chase: At the Bowery Hotel.
Shannon Smith: No, we're not going to talk about that,
Suzy Chase: But we won't talk about that. So where can we find you on the web and social media?
Shannon Smith: You can find me at my website, chefshannon.com, and then on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok. It's Chef Shannon Smith.
Suzy Chase: And anyone can come to your dinners.
Shannon Smith: Of course.
Yes. I love to feed people. When people say, what do you do? I say, I feed people. That's what I do.
Suzy Chase: In your gorgeous home,
Shannon Smith: Thank you.
Suzy Chase: With three kitchens.
Shannon Smith: It does have three kitchens. I have six garbage disposals. There's something wrong with me.
Suzy Chase: I need one of yours here in New York City. Anyway, well, Shannon, on this Thanksgiving, which you hate, I am thankful you are my friend, and I'm so thankful you were able to come on my podcast finally.
Shannon Smith: Thank you, Suzy. I will say, even though I don't care for the holiday of Thanksgiving, I am truly thankful every day, and I am so thankful for you. I'm so glad that we made a connection, but more importantly, I'm so glad that we've continued our friendship all these years, and I have looked forward to this day to get to talk to you because I'm such a fan of all your podcasts and your passion and drive, and to be able to be part of it is a huge privilege. So thank you.
Suzy Chase: Oh, thank you. Okay, so where can you listen to the new Dinner Party podcast series? Well, it's on substack suzy chase.substack.com. You can also subscribe to Dinner Party for free on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Additionally, the episodes will be available on both Decorating by the Book and Cookery by the Book. Long story short, you'll be able to listen to it virtually everywhere. Thanks for listening. Bye.
